Why Relationships Fail: Family Trauma, Addiction & Communication Breakdowns

Family dynamics shape far more than we often realise. What is left unspoken, carried in silence, or hidden within a family system can continue to influence relationships, behaviour, and emotional patterns across generations.

In many cases, people are not only responding to the present moment, but to histories that were never fully understood or expressed.

In this episode of Living a Life in Balance, Abdullah Boulad is joined by Caroline Curtis Dolby for a grounded conversation on trauma, family systems, and the realities of relationships.

Topics explored in this conversation include:

• How early trauma, addiction, and secrecy shape family systems
• Why people within the same family respond differently to the same experiences
• The role of lived experience in shaping therapeutic work
• Family Emotional Governance® and working with families as a system
• Communication breakdown in couples and the impact of unspoken issues
• Cultural differences and how they influence relationships
• Why many couples operate as individuals instead of a partnership
• Common relationship challenges including addiction, affairs, and conflict
• What healthy relationships are built on: respect, loyalty, communication, and support
• Why marriage requires responsibility and long-term commitment
• The role of family rituals, shared time, and structure
• The importance of continued self-awareness and personal growth

This conversation offers a thoughtful perspective on relationships, not as something to perfect, but as something to understand, work through, and take responsibility for over time.

About Caroline: London-based psychotherapist and founder of Belgravia Therapy, with extensive experience working with individuals, couples, and families. She specialises in complex family dynamics, including high-conflict divorce and parental alienation, and is also experienced in trauma and addiction.

00:00:00 – Childhood Trauma, Family Secrets & Addiction
00:01:11 – How Trauma Shaped Her Path to Therapy
00:07:07 – Why Family Members Experience Trauma Differently
00:09:23 – Recovery, Addiction & Early Work in Therapy
00:10:52 – How Personal Recovery Shapes a Therapist
00:12:57 – Family Emotional Governance® Explained
00:15:56 – Relationship Crisis: Loneliness, Control & Infidelity
00:19:18 – High-Conflict Families: Addiction, Gambling & Risk
00:22:23 – Why Communication Breaks Down in Relationships
00:24:29 – Why Couples Should Do Therapy Before Marriage
00:27:51 – Cultural Differences & Relationship Conflict
00:30:07 – Why Couples Need Individual + Joint Therapy
00:31:38 – The Impact of Secrets & Hidden Family Histories

00:36:14 – Men vs Women: Communication Differences Explained
00:38:13 – How to Actually Listen in a Relationship
00:42:43 – Validation, Pressure & Modern Relationship Stress
00:45:04 – “Throwaway Culture” & Why Relationships Fail
00:47:49 – Expectations vs Reality in Relationships
00:53:26 – Marriage: Commitment, Reality & Misconceptions
00:56:49 – Healthy vs Unhealthy Relationships: Key Signs

Follow Abdullah Boulad: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdullahboulad/  

Follow Caroline Curtis:
https://www.instagram.com/lurleenshoo/

You can order Abdullah’s books here: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0BC9S5TCF?ccs_id=c64f2588-7eb1-4592-b4d1-647a0f379b51

Follow THE BALANCE Rehab Clinic: 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/thebalancerehabclinic/

Transcript

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:00:00  My father was involved in an accident. It was late, it was dark, and he knocked them down. And he killed them. All my childhood, I never told anybody it was a big family, dark secret. My father had a very serious drug and alcohol problem. There was nothing else I could really do with my life. Actually, it's when I became a therapist, I knew I was in exactly the right place. Things that are valuable, you look after. We shouldn't be living in a throwaway society where you throw relationships away so casually. You're stronger as a weed than an eye. All of us are out of something awful that happens in life. We have to see some benefits to how we can improve the future.

Speaker 2 00:00:49  Welcome to the Living a Life and Balance podcast. My guest today is Caroline Curtis Dolby, a multicultural psychotherapist and family systems expert known for her work in emotional governance and intergenerational healing. I hope you will enjoy Caroline. What motivated you to do what you do today?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:01:11  That's a very good question.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:01:15  I think there's just the one story. So I'm going to take you back to the beginning of my life. I was born in London, but raised in Iran, in Tehran, and my father was working out there. we had a beautiful house in Rezaei, in the center of downtown Tehran. And my father was involved in an accident where, an Iranian woman walked across the road in the rain with a black shadow on and a baby held against her breasts underneath the shadow. So you can imagine in Iran they have four perfectly separate seasons spring, summer, autumn, winter. And in winter, when the rain comes, it's driving rain. It was late, it was dark, and he knocked them down and he killed them. Wow. And obviously he went, you know, the police were called. He immediately said it was very distressed and hysterical as to what had happened. And they came to the house and they arrested him. And I was four years of age when this happened. And my mother was heavily pregnant and she was hysterical.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:02:36  My father was distressed and I can remember feeling at four. I needed to grow up and be the grown up in the room very quickly. Everything felt very unstable and, and I suppose at that time I can remember my my senses heightened. They went from child senses of innocence to like something really serious has happened. And I used to be taken to the little nursery at the British Embassy School in the morning by my mother, and we'd walked past Evin Prison in Tehran, and they would be hanging people from, you know, scaffolding. Yeah. And so I knew something awful had happened. and it was that that sense of going from four years old to suddenly I was 14 years old. I was grown up in the room and reading the room, reading all the senses of the hysteria of my mother, the my mother going to the prison every day to visit my father, and making friends with the guards to try to give them a feeling that we were British. We were, We were good people.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:03:58  This was a terrible accident. We didn't want this to escalate into something really ugly and a diplomatic situation. It was very delicate. We were not allowed to leave the country. And I picked up all of these feelings that were swirling around in our house. And I can remember, you know, this so strongly. And my beginnings in Tehran was the first ten years of my life. And obviously he he went to court. He was exonerated. It was a terrible accident. He was released from jail. But six months later. Okay. and, but it had a profound effect on me and all the years that I was growing up after that, you know, my father had a very serious drug and alcohol problem, which was attributed to many things. But this was definitely a part of why he drank. Yeah. in those days, people didn't really understand addiction. You know, expat community were heavy drinkers. They would go to opium dens at the weekend. It was a perfectly normal thing at that time in Iran.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:05:07  It was also quite normal for him to put some opium in my bottle or my brother's bottle to help us sleep. Oh, really? It was perfectly considered normal. This is what the advice would be if you went to the doc, or just put a little opium in her bottle. You know, I mean, it's different days, different ways. I'm going back to 1964. So, but out of this, out of this experience and, you know, out of something awful that happens in life, we have to see some benefits to how we can improve the future. And I felt from such a young age that my vocation was working with people in the in the realm of feelings and senses. It was vocational for me always. My training was just a formalization of what I already knew instinctively. and that was my motivation. There was nothing else I could really do with my life. Actually, it's when I became a therapist, which is 28 years ago now, I knew I was in exactly the right place.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:06:18  It was like a hand going into a beautiful lambskin glove. It was like, I have arrived. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And my, my, I was explaining, to someone earlier. I've never really needed external validation. I don't do podcasts and interviews because my work is with my clients. I want to just be that crucible, that that entity that can make some profound shifts and changes in people's lives. so that is, I suppose, a very long, answer to your question of motivation at all.

Speaker 2 00:06:57  Yeah. So at a very early age and deep experience, do you consider this as as trauma, your experience there?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:07:07  Yeah. It's deep childhood trauma. Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:07:11  And how how has this affected you? You know, growing up because you become became a therapist much later. So but growing up, was there any effect you felt, within yourself or even within within the family and the family dynamic? Yeah. What has changed?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:07:30  it obviously affected me and my brother, who's four years younger than me.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:07:36  We were both affected by what happened. Yeah. in different, completely different ways, actually. Very interesting. We grew up in the same family. We have the same parents, but we're both so completely different. And the way we've been affected is very different. Which is why when I work with families and couples, it's so interesting because I identify with maybe this person's got a drug problem, but this person's perfectly fine. You know, it's really interesting. You would imagine that we would all be affected in the same way. But I see these differences. it definitely affected me. I was very secretive about this my whole life until I became, a therapist, and I was able to share publicly what had happened, and nobody had. I'd never breathed the word of this, like all my childhood, and never told anybody. It was a big family dark secret. Yes. when I went to boarding school in North Wales, a private school education, and I never told anybody. They were some of my closest friends.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:08:50  They never knew.

Speaker 2 00:08:52  You had shame around this.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:08:53  I was brought up with you. Don't air your dirty laundry in public. You keep your family secrets behind closed doors. Yeah, that's how I was brought up. Don't tell anybody.

Speaker 2 00:09:10  But did you speak about it within the family?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:09:13  No. It became like something we never discussed.

Speaker 2 00:09:18  And when? When did you decide to become a therapist?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:09:23  I think that my my training started when I, entered into recovery myself when I was 37. Yeah. And I realized that I wanted I understood, I understood, and I thought, I want to be a therapist. I want to work with families. I want to work with families in crisis. And I understand addiction. And, I did my first eight years of training on the Harrow Road in a drug project. definitely dressing down. Okay. This is not how I looked when I went there. I dressed down, and I went up to the Harrow Road two afternoons a week for eight years. And I worked with prostitutes and rent boys, and I gave out needles and condoms, and it was very much on the coalface of crisis, and I loved it.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:10:22  I did some of my best work there, working with very underprivileged and desperate population. But I learnt a huge amount, not just about addiction in the industry that I was going to enter into, but also I learned a lot about myself?

Speaker 2 00:10:40  Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:10:41  Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:10:42  And the addiction. The recovery process you personally went through. Do you think that made you a better therapist later on?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:10:52  When I went to study, I studied at CCP, the center for Counselling and Psychotherapy Education in Maida Vale. there were 70 people in my year when I started, and, I was the only one that had the 12 step knowledge of recovery. Okay. It helped me so much, mainly in the fact that I thought, I don't know that I can do this. I had a sort of imposter syndrome in me, you know? Can I do this? Yes. Am I good enough to do this? Do I have the gift? Can I learn everything that I need to learn? I was doubting myself, but the 12 step program taught me to keep everything in the day.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:11:44  Keep everything in the day. Just do your best. Keep showing up. It was invaluable and I used some of their methodology in my training. See, I wove it in where other people would leave this. I can't do this. I thought, no, I can do this. I can do this. And as time went by, my confidence started to gather and I thought the, the, the, the sort of the, the, the scaffolding of the 12 step program guided me through my training. Profoundly grateful.

Speaker 2 00:12:23  Yeah. So it helped you certainly to to define who you are and find your, your your way through through what type of clients you've been working with and what what you do today. and and you, you have become specialists or intensively working also with families. Yeah. Well, what are what what kind of governance do families go through? what's your what what's the type of work you do with them?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:12:57  Okay. So I developed my own model. So training at CCP was a transpersonal humanistic psychotherapy training.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:13:09  So what that means in real terms is that we had, like, a smorgasbord of every single great model that had been developed since Jung and Freud. Yeah, we learnt about all of them. So it was the way I was trained was to each, each human being is like a snowflake of individuality. And one model is not going to fit all of your clients. So when the client comes for an initial assessment, which in my practice is an hour and a half, I am able, with some clever questioning, to ascertain what I'm dealing with and how best I'm going to then treat this patient or couple or family. Yes, and I'm able to draw down on my smorgasbord of various different. I might use a little bit of road area, and I might use a little bit of CBT. I might use a little bit of, you know, I strategize as to how best I'm going to work with this couple, family or individual. but there was a gap. There was a gap in my smorgasbord, and I needed to fill it by building my own model, which is when I developed family emotional governance.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:14:30  And what that was very it was very thought through name, which is trademarked to Belgravia Therapy because I needed a unique model to Belgravia therapy that nobody else had. Yeah. So it was also a structural business decision? Yes. Also trademarking it so no one could take it from me. And then I developed the model, and it was developed on my experience of working with couples who often come and see me in a crisis. They don't turn up because they're having a bad week or a bad day. Yeah, they come because there's a crisis. And, I'm a multicultural psychotherapist, so I have, clients from all over the world. I'll give you just a snapshot of a client to give you an example of a crisis. I was sent a couple, and she had got addicted online to having remote intimacy with strangers that she met online. Okay, now she was a Druze and you understand Lebanese Druze. She she was from a particular sect of Islam, which is a very closed order. They're very private people.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:15:56  They tend not to marry outside of the Druze community. And I know George Clooney's wife is a Druze, and she did step outside. And understandably, if you were going to marry George Clooney. But generally, they don't marry outside of their sect. Well, she'd married into a muslim Pakistani family, very wealthy traders of food across the world, and he was always away and kept her on a very short financial leash. Living in the UK in an area with very little family and friends around her. She had three children, no money and almost a prisoner in her home in London while he was travelling and buying himself cars and watches and having a very beautiful, grand and lavish lifestyle. And she'd become so isolated and lonely. And you can understand why she got involved in this. Unfortunately, he found out by going into her laptop and discovering what she these different platforms that she'd been on, and he immediately saw, saw it as a source of shame that he wanted to tell all his family members that she was dirty and disgusting and what she'd been involved in, that she'd been unfaithful to him.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:17:24  She hadn't had sexual Intimacy. Yes, other than online. But he saw it as a, as a, a disloyal, offense to him. And he wanted a divorce. So working with this couple, it was about explaining to him intimacy disorder, loneliness, control. Because often people confuse control and caring. He thought if he kept her isolated, that she would be controlled. But she got lonely and desperate. this was about two years worth of work with these. This couple to keep them together. They actually loved each other very much. And this happens in lots of couples in the West and in the Middle East and in the forest, because I've had a lot of, Chinese clients for me. They stuck in a busy world. Two people in a in a marriage or a relationship start operating as two eyes. They don't operate as a we.

Speaker 2 00:18:42  So these are the different views of of of a couple coming coming to you. That's their perception. That's their reality. The and the and the lack of communication.

Speaker 2 00:18:51  Probably between the two. Yes. and cultural differences adds on top of it. If there are, there is a gap of cultural differences as well. What type of family crisis or issues? families or couples come to you or in general have have problems when when they seek family therapy?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:19:18  So I'll just give you a couple of examples. I've had clients come to me where their son is. Autistic. Has got involved in gambling. Has started gambling with very dangerous Albanian gambling barons who are threatening the family if he doesn't pay his debts. I've had to put security into their homes 24 over seven for months on end, while they patrol the house externally and internally, sleeping in the house to protect the family. I've had crisis where sons and daughters have, got involved in drugs and alcohol and they don't know how to solve the problem. Yes. couples who are, find themselves In situations where they've been blackmailed, because of their behavioral addiction to some unhealthy practices. and and often they're very, you know, ultra high net worth.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:20:36  They're running public companies. Yes. If anybody were to find out it would affect the share price. It's, it's very it's very delicate information that needs to be resolved in a very delicate way. And and I suppose, you know, I'm like a lot of my clients can word of mouth now. So from all communities in the middle and Far East and I've never had to advertise, I've never put an advertisement in anywhere. I've never done a podcast. I've never done it because I think I'm quite good at not just doing psychotherapy at solving problems. So it's it's a psychotherapy hat, but you need to be able to think outside the box to solve the problems. Yes. And I have, you know, private investigators, I have security guards that work for me. I have private psychiatric nurses that work for me to take clients to treatment privately in a private plane, if necessary. I can move very fast to solve a problem if I need to.

Speaker 2 00:21:49  So quite the diverse issues which their families can come up with problems.

Speaker 2 00:21:57  Some are external related, some are internal probably. And how have you been observing like the the issues around communication styles within within a relationship, a partnership or within a family? And how is this affecting? the, the dynamic within within that relationship.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:22:23  There's, there's often a communication problem and a connection problem with two people. Often that starts before they get married. The lack of connection and communication. It's, you know, when you fall in love with someone, you. You know, they say you fall madly in love. You do go a little bit mad when you fall in love, right? You sort of like you any any red flags. You dismiss them like, oh, no, don't worry. We'll sort that one out down the road. And then there's not much discussion before people get married about potential obstacles within that relationship. And sometimes it could be cross-cultural. It could be that someone's had a previous marriage and they've got children from a previous relationship, maybe even children outside of that relationship.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:23:10  But that needs to be talked about. It needs to be brought into the conversation. But what happens is it becomes like the elephant in the room, like the family that I grew up in. The real issues were not talked about. It was just shovelled under the carpet. It'll all be fine. And of course, transparency and being emotionally courageous to talk about things that are difficult is not easy. It's really hard for people, and sometimes they need an arbitrator or a moderator to sit with the family and give them the emotional courage to be able to express what's been going on. And once we know what's going on, then we can start to solve the problem. And connection and communication can be restored. I mean, I help lots of people separate and divorce, but I, I, I keep a, I would say 40% of couples I keep together.

Speaker 2 00:24:06  Yes. Beautiful. So 40% of your work will work. Yeah. You can make it happen. Yeah, but you need both sides to to do the work and buy in.

Speaker 2 00:24:19  Yeah. But you mentioned like before they meet or when they start meeting, you know, to lose this, pink pink view.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:24:29  Yeah. There is it's an interesting one because, you know, years ago, the church in the Christian faith would step in. And I know that the church with the Alpha program still do a marriage course effectively. and it's very good, the marriage, of course, but it's not from a psychotherapeutic perspective of being able to understand people's backstory and what would affect them in the present, in the future. They don't have that knowledge because they're priests and they're not necessarily schooled in psycho education. It's not their fault. They do a great job with what the tools that they have. But, I, you know, I believe strongly that there is a psychotherapeutic marriage course that needs to be available to people. So before they get married, they can start to to sit with one another and learn the art of connection and communication, maybe tell each other things that they might not have told each other yet.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:25:32  and, you know, families are complicated. You know, maybe bring families into that, too, sometimes. So everybody meets each other in a, in a much more holistic and organic fashion because we're solving for harmony in life. Always.

Speaker 2 00:25:49  Yes. We we try. We try.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:25:51  We try to solve for harmony.

Speaker 2 00:25:53  It's interesting, you say, you know, within the Christian culture you had this. I always tend to to see that relationships can function better. If a cultural, a common culture is a common factor Rather than if you if you if you have two different cultures, you need more effort from both sides. And their communication is is key. Because I experienced this myself or had experienced myself. You know, I have a Lebanese origin. also religious wise, I grew up in a muslim, environment. my wife I met in Switzerland, I grew up in Switzerland. The different cultural environment, which is also, great to to have and experience and live in countries to, to try to understand different cultures.

Speaker 2 00:26:53  she's more Christian and, we needed to find our way. so I had obstacles from the family side. she had the same, but we wanted that, and we made it happen. With maybe a little bit of not understanding what this means going forward, what obstacles we will have also in our life. But we are managing well because we communicate each other, we are open and we respect each other in a way that we try to find the solution for every obstacle coming up. But this might be not the case with so many people. and then then at some point, if they value more their cultural background, then the other person's opinion to that situation, how how do you see the differences on when it comes to this cultural clashes?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:27:51  I would say 80% of my clients are different cultures, married together. So everything from, Brazilian and Swedish, which are two very different cultures, Swedish being very cool and Brazilian being very fiery. And the clashes in that the the the misunderstanding of how her background is very fiery and his is very cool.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:28:22  I mean, I think if, if you love each other and you want to make a marriage work, then you can make it work. You might need some help, but you can make it work. If you love each other, it's when it's more transactional and the differences start to show. And it's not just two different backgrounds. It can be two different cultures. It can be different backgrounds. So if somebody comes from a very poor socioeconomic background, someone's from a very wealthy background, that's also very problematic. There's a miscommunication. There's a there's a there's a disconnect in. In affluence. Like, how does this person come up and how does this person come down a bit? And that can bring equal tension to two people from two different cultures?

Speaker 2 00:29:19  Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:29:20  There's an expression called equal partners play best. And it's so true. It's affiliated to tennis. Actually, when you're playing tennis, you want to play with someone equal, not equal to you. But it's the same in relationships really. Equal partners play best.

Speaker 2 00:29:39  Yeah. Interesting. So I play a little bit of tennis but you can adjust a little bit to, to yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:29:45  You can adjust.

Speaker 2 00:29:46  A little bit down a bit less or. Yeah, maybe the better one can adjust more to, to down than up. but it gets if you have to play all the time and every time Just be the one who adjusts. Yeah, it can be tiring.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:30:07  The cracks in connection and communication can be for multiple different reasons. In my practice, I see people together. And then I see them separately. Because people behave differently when they have their other halves sitting next to them. And it's really important that I have that opportunity to speak to someone individually without their husband or their wife sitting next to them, because they will disclose to me what's really going on for them, and then their other half will disclose to me what is going on for them. And they have to trust me. I will never cross-pollinate what is said to each other. That's private, confidential.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:30:53  But it gives me an opportunity to think I know what's going on here, and I can either fix this or I can't. I know very quickly if this is salvageable.

Speaker 2 00:31:08  When you. When you look at the couples. Yeah. what do they wrong to get in this situation? I mean, beside probably the lack of cultural understanding of their partners or, probably also the lack of understanding of their own cultures or their own needs in the first place when they decided to go into this relationship. But from a communication perspective, what what do they wrong usually?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:31:38  It's so interesting you asked that question because I had a couple that came to see me. She was English from a very poor working class family, but very clever. Had ended up working for a very big bank in the city. Went to Oxford, grade-A student. Her husband was Iranian And very clever. He'd grown up in Denmark, actually, and she'd met him in the bank, and they'd got married and they had two children. They'd been together 16 years, and they had decided that he would stay at home and raise the children, and she would stay in the bank.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:32:19  She made more money than him. Now she had an alcohol problem, and he insisted that they come together to see me. But what transpired in this session was that he had been sent by his parents during the Iran-Iraq War, by. He'd been taken by these people when he was nine years old, across the border, to get out of the country so he wouldn't be transported into the army at that time, because they were taking very young boys. They were frightened that their eldest boy would be taken from them and would never come back. So he was taken with these these people who were very dangerous. And they didn't hear from this boy for two years. They didn't know if he was dead or alive. When he materialized, it was two years later, he was 11, and he was found in a detention centre in Denmark for children. and his parents were given economic asylum in Sweden, and they came from Tehran to Denmark to collect him. And they took him to Sweden, where the parents didn't speak English, they only spoke Farsi.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:33:47  He was the only one that could speak the language. So he was taking them to get their papers and everything. And he was like the man of the house all of a sudden at 11 years of age. But what was so extraordinary is that his wife did not know that story. She didn't know that her husband had spent two years traveling from Tehran to Denmark. God knows what had happened to him in those two years. I can't even imagine. He has no memory. So imagine being with someone for 16 years and never telling them that.

Speaker 2 00:34:20  Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:34:21  Imagine what sort of a relationship was this? And why did they even find each other and get together? So what I do is go back in the family constellation. I always ask people, tell me about your parents and what they did and your grandparents and your great grandparents. Let me get a map of your family constellation, whether they were wealthy or poor or what they did for a living, how they lived where they lived, so that I can build up a picture.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:34:58  So we're also looking at historical trauma.

Speaker 2 00:35:02  Yes. Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:35:04  And sometimes that plays out in the relationship today in front of me. They don't understand one another.

Speaker 2 00:35:11  So there was a lack of full transparency or.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:35:14  I think there's a lot I think there's a need to be when you meet someone, you want to present yourself as the best possible person you can be. You want this person to love you. You want this person to be your husband and the father of your children, or your wife and the mother. You want that to work. And maybe there are secrets from the past. You don't particularly want to tell those secrets to that person. Or it's minimized or it was. Nothing wasn't important.

Speaker 2 00:35:46  But something like that is something. It's a significant in someone's life or childhood And not talking about that to your wife is, certainly significant. trust and but saying a lot also about about that person and and and values. what other types of miscommunication or misalignment within relationships do you usually see?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:36:14  Well, I think there's two things here.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:36:17  Women like to talk, right. They love to.

Speaker 2 00:36:20  Talk. Oh, yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:36:22  They they love to talk. They don't want answers. They just want to talk. They want to talk to their girlfriends. They want to talk to the housekeeper. They want to talk to their sisters and their mother. They want to talk, and they want to continue to talk about the same story and go over and over it. And they want to say, guess what happened today? Da da da da da da da da. And this is what happened to my friend and did it. They want to talk. When they start talking to their husbands, their men. They want to find solutions. Men are all about. Give me a stick. Let me solve it. Let me solve the problem. And women say I don't want you to solve the problem. I just want you to hear me. Listen to me and hear my story. And they go. But you want this solved? No, I just want to talk about it.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:37:08  And and, you know, men will say, well, I just don't know. I could solve this, but she doesn't want me to solve it. And then she gets crossed with me because I've solved it. And it's just a it's just a difference between men and women. Men want to solve the problem. They want to run after a stick and go and get, you know, get this squared away. Problem solved. Look what I've done. Women want to talk. They just want to talk.

Speaker 2 00:37:34  Okay.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:37:35  It happens again and again and again.

Speaker 2 00:37:38  And in many relationships.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:37:39  Many cultures. Yeah. I think this is why, you know, men used to go often, be with men and talk with men. And women used to go off to the harem or wherever and talk in, in, in, You know, with other women. and even in the our culture, the Christian men would go off to the smoking room and have a brandy and smoke and talk about male things, and women would sit behind and do some tapestry and play the piano and they would talk.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:38:08  But we don't, we tend to have homogenized and we don't do that anymore so much.

Speaker 2 00:38:13  What what would be then the ideal way of, do's within a relationship and communication. So listening, listening each other out or.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:38:27  Yeah. It's it's always good to reflect back what someone said. So when the women are talking. Yes. And they. You don't know what this happened. They didn't just say okay, have I got have I got this right? So today you went to the supermarket. You know, you you prang the car? It was someone else's fault. Yes, yes, it was someone else's fault. It wasn't my fault. And you go. Okay, okay. So is there anything else? Yes. This stupid man came out and he was shouting at me. And really? Really. So the man came out. He was shouting at you? Yeah. Is there anything else? Yes. All my shopping was on the ground, and I. You know, I would. It's all rolled out and it was.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:39:11  My oranges were. What did you do? Well, I got someone keep asking questions rather than solving it.

Speaker 2 00:39:18  Okay, but that's difficult. That sounds like a therapist being married to a therapist.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:39:24  It's difficult. You have to learn to tell me. Is there anything else? Is there anything else? Okay.

Speaker 2 00:39:30  Until they tell you what they want to say and just listen. Listen. Don't try to solve or try to, tell them what to do. because that's that's again, that's the core of communication. No one wants to be told what to do. Right. We we just want probably to reflect ourself. Yes, but want someone. Because we are human beings. We want someone else to. To reflect on. Yes. And this is where we feel in relationships that person should be that. Yes. Reflection point. Of course.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:40:06  It causes so much conflict. Men not listening and women not respecting the fact that if you tell your husband there's a problem, he's going to want to solve it.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:40:19  He's going to want to solve it. So it's like, don't solve it yet.

Speaker 2 00:40:24  Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:40:25  And allow her to talk. And when she's finished talking, maybe ask for his help. Say, I need your help. I can't solve this.

Speaker 2 00:40:36  So don't help as long as you're not asked to help. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. And. try just to listen and reflect. And what about the opposite way? What can women do to. If man has something to say? Are there some specialties also? What? What men.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:40:55  Yeah. So. So you know this expression. Happy. Happy wife. Happy life. Right. I always think happy husband, happy life. Look after your lion. Right. Look after him. If you look at lion behaviour, the mummy lion goes and gets him some food, right? Yes. If she can't pull down the elephant, she goes and says to the man. Lion, I need your help. I can't bring down the elephant. He'll come and help her.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:41:25  But then she feeds him, and the cubs come up, and they try and take some food. And the daddy lion goes, get off my food. I'm the daddy I need to eat. Then you can have the carcass. It's very it's like we're we're animals, you know, we're primal. And sometimes we need to recognize the fact that, you know, men are actually quite fragile. Sometimes they need a lot of love. They need a lot of attention. They need to feel that they're definitely top of the food chain. They need to be given respect. And if you look after your man, he will stay faithful and in a happy situation because he feels as if he's got a nice nest and a happy home. And it's harmonious. He can bring his problems back. You can listen to his problems, ask him lots of questions, be available to him. It's it's it's the same in reverse. Like look after each other. Be nice to one another. Always solve for harmony and if people are listened to it, super nice.

Speaker 2 00:42:43  But which gender need more validation or focus confirmation?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:42:54  I think men need to be really looked after in a relationship. I think women assume that they're fine and they're often not fine. They don't feel valued. Yeah, often I hear this. They don't feel valued. All the attentions on the children. They're talking to their girlfriends on the phone, I come in. She's busy. There's no time for me.

Speaker 2 00:43:17  Yeah. If I think about modern families today, you know, busy lives, at home, you have your children, you have you have your whatever jobs. And you run from one thing to another. Expectations, how you should live your life, what you should do, what what social media is telling you your comparison with others. So all these expectations are on on us. we we tend to try to have this face to the outside, but then the internal clashes probably get more intense. Do you see that?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:43:56  I do see that. I think everybody's trying so hard to be the best version of themselves.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:44:03  The best wife, the best husband, the best this, the best that. But actually we're really very fragile as human beings were vulnerable. And our feelings can very easily be very hurt. And that can build up into more hurt feelings and more hurt feelings. And then you stop communicating. And you stop touching each other and you stop caring for one another and and and life is messy. you know, this is a word that I don't hear very often, but life is very messy. Things happen. Yeah. And the space to allow yourself to be perfectly and perfectly fragile and vulnerable and messy, that it's okay. We can fix this. You know, it's not. It's not, when we don't, we shouldn't be living in a throwaway society where you throw relationships away so casually.

Speaker 2 00:45:04  Yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:45:04  All relationships. You know, we do have a connection with another human being is a very beautiful thing. And to have a to fall in love and to agree to spend the rest of your life with someone and raise a family is a is a huge declaration.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:45:25  And there's a there's a sort of culture of throwaway. We just throw it, it doesn't work. Throw it away. We'll get another wife. We'll get another husband, we'll get another family. We'll get.

Speaker 2 00:45:35  This is the.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:45:36  Swipe swipe culture. The swipe. Yeah. Oh, there's a better one over there. Things that are valuable you look after. If you have a beautiful diamond, you wrap it up in velvet. You put it carefully in the safe you protect. And it's precious. Being relational with another human being is a precious thing, whether it's a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a, you know, a connection in work, it's a precious thing. I'm big on loyalty. You know, loyalty. Loyalty to my partner, my husband, loyalty to my family, loyalty to my country.

Speaker 2 00:46:15  Loyalty without losing yourself.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:46:18  Without losing myself. I want to be loyal as a human being. It's one of my course core parts of my being. Integrity. Loyalty. Morality. Kindness. Authenticity.

Speaker 2 00:46:37  You need. You need to know yourself. To define what is your. Yeah. Morality. Loyalty. What do you want in life? What do you want from the relationship? Probably as well. We grow up to have expectations. Expectations on us. Expectations on others. And when it comes to relationships, very often we just expect things from others because they should make us happy. They should. Should, maybe fill the void, or they should put this trash out and regularly. And if it's not done, then I'm angry and so on and so. So just little things. So it's all this expectation, not just from outside on us, but towards each other. How can we recognize again get out of this spiral of expectations towards each other in a relationship and and allow the space for the other person to be. And how do we communicate that? From our own feeling and perspective, what our expectations are.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:47:49  I think. Expectation is up here. And the other end of expectation is disappointment down here.

Speaker 2 00:47:56  Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:47:57  And we often go from expectation to disappointment and then get cross. And I think if we can come up into the middle bring expectation down a little bit. Bring the disappointment up a little bit and allow each other to be vulnerable and flawed and imperfect. And really that's often what you fall in love with. It's that imperfection. It's that little quirky thing that that person has in them that you think I love, that in them. No one else loves it, but I love it, you know.

Speaker 2 00:48:28  And keep keep being curious.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:48:30  And curious.

Speaker 2 00:48:31  How.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:48:31  We communication communication like oh he's dropped the you know drop that again. You know it's fine. Just it's like what. Pick your battles.

Speaker 2 00:48:40  It's like we lose that as we age. Probably. Yeah. So so it gets more difficult to connect with others and, without keeping these expectations.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:48:51  Yeah. Yeah, I think I, I think my patience is I've worked hard on my patience in my life, you know, when I've seen myself become annoyed or irritated.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:49:04  And I have observed that in myself, as you say, continuously being curious about how I respond. Why is something making me feel so angry or upset? How do I deal with that? And how is it that I deal with it in my husband if I see him doing something. How much energy am I going to give that in my irritation? How much am I going to give it a little bit or nothing? Well a lot. How? What am I going to do with that? Am I going to allow that to disturb me or not? Naturally I'm not. I let a lot of things go into the easy breezy bucket. Easy breezy. Doesn't matter. I could make it into a big deal. I know how to do that. If I'm feeling tired or snippy. But I'm not going to. I don't want to. You know, it's like I want harmony in my home. I want this to be a soft place for both of us to fall. I'll solve for harmony. I'll let it go.

Speaker 2 00:50:12  Harmony can also be an a coping mechanism just to please the other person. But avoid your own personal needs and boundaries. Yes, if you just to consent to something you don't want or you try to people please the other children probably also you want to be loved by them. Of course not. Avoid any. Yeah. Any discomfort or discomfort communication around it. But what I recently I heard this quote, happiness is is your current state without expectations. So that's what, what tells me, you know, sometimes it's about us. It's not about the other person. You know, our disappointment is it's here. It's it's us. Yeah. So it needs self-reflection. So why do I have this expectation? Why do I react to this situation? What feelings am I getting now by reacting that way? And and we need to do the work ourselves.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:51:21  You're right, it's always about if you know yourself. And psychotherapy, I always think psychotherapy is like continued personal development. I think everybody should be in psychotherapy from a small child at school all the way up, because you're always learning.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:51:40  I'm always learning new things about myself and things that I don't like about myself or things I need to change, how I can improve myself, constant improvement suggestions rather than criticism to myself. How can I make that better? How can I improve? Yeah. and it's like CPD, you know, we have to do a certain amount of continued professional development. I think we should all be doing continued personal development our whole lives because people come and see me. I've got clients I've had for 20 years now. They come and they stay for maybe a year. And we deal with a divorce or problem, and they come out the other side and then they go away, and then they ring up five years later and say, I'm getting married again. Can I come and see you? Can I bring my my fiance? Of course. Come in. Let me meet you and see your fiance. And and then I work with them maybe for a year and help them. And then they get married and they have a family, and then they come back ten years later and say, oh, my son has got a problem with drugs at school.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:52:45  And will you see, I don't see children under 18, but I support the family and I work with people who look after children. So I try and get them, their children help. And so they come back, you know? Life is messy. Good things happen. Bad things happen. Parents die. Things get triggered.

Speaker 2 00:53:06  Yeah. I mean, that's that's what life is about. We get we get stronger as we as we move through the world. If you can stay and refrain from everything. Not getting married, not having children. Not not, not not. But at the end you end up missing out life also.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:53:22  Yeah. Like, where have you been? Where's your story? You know.

Speaker 2 00:53:26  But what's your what's your understanding of marriage? And, does this concept of marriage has any future?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:53:35  Well, I'm I'm a I didn't get married till I was 58, by the way. So that's eight years ago. So I, had been engaged. but I had always had the doubt that that wasn't quite the right person.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:53:50  So I didn't want to ever lie to the universe in a church that I was going to spend my life with someone when I had a doubt I could. I couldn't make that. I couldn't do that for me. But I, I believe in marriage. I think marriage is a beautiful thing. I think that, you're stronger as a wee than an eye. All of us are. I think that a marriage certificate should be signed in a lawyer's office, not a church. I think it's a really big deal. I think you need to be considered when you get married, and I think it needs to be taken a lot more seriously than a big dress and a party. Yes, that's just the big dress in the party. But it's not taking into account the commitment that you're making to someone for the rest of your life. And that, containment of marriage provides children in the middle so they know where they come from, and they're secure in that. I think marriage is a wonderful and a beautiful thing.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:55:00  It's gone out of fashion a bit, but I think it will come back when they start taking it seriously. It's become sort of Instagram. Yeah. Let's get a dress and have a cake and a party and.

Speaker 2 00:55:15  Nice pictures.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:55:16  Nice pictures. And then the reality of living with someone takes a lot of hard work and dedication and love. So don't be taking it in a frivolous, immaterial way. Take it seriously. And you know there are people out there want to get married of both sexes, whether they want to get married to each other, you know. They want the commitment. They want the solidarity and the what is perceived as a safety to build. As I say, the world is really dangerous out there. We are stronger, united as a we than we are as an I. So I'm a I'm a big believer in marriage. I will always go to try to save a marriage. Before I understand that the marriage is not favorable, then I will help them to separate. But I think it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 00:56:15  If.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:56:15  If it's healthy.

Speaker 2 00:56:16  If it's healthy, if.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:56:17  It's.

Speaker 2 00:56:17  Healthy and both. Yeah. go through the. Yeah. The tough times as well together.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:56:23  And there will be.

Speaker 2 00:56:25  Yes. It it it's, it's difficult to to define what is healthy what is not healthy anymore. I mean you're an expert. You help people stay together. You help people find a way to to to, to depart. Yeah. What do you define personally as healthy still and and when would you suggest to let go. Yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:56:49  I mean, if, if somebody is, using drugs and alcohol to a really, addictive state of mind, it's impossible to have a connection with another human being. It's not possible. And that will damage the Marriage. If you can get someone clean and sober. And I always say, don't get divorced until you're clean and sober. Yes. Don't make that decision. So get clean and then make the decision. You may still make the same decision. You may decide you want to separate and divorce.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:57:27  But if you make this decision under the influence of drugs and alcohol, you may very well regret it. Having said that, a lot of people who get clean and sober, it doesn't save the relationship. but at least you're doing it from the perspective of wise thinking. Sober wise thinking.

Speaker 2 00:57:52  Yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:57:53  So, that's not healthy in a relationship. It's not healthy. If someone's having an affair that's not healthy. It's not healthy. If two people are not communicating, that's not healthy. The children can pick up the atmosphere in the family dynamic, then miserable. if you're fighting in front of the children all the time, that's not healthy. If you've got a lot of external, interference from family within the marriage, it's not healthy. Yeah. if there's one person in the marriage with an eating disorder, it's not healthy or both. Not healthy. You can't connect another human being if you're not spiritually available to yourself. You can't be spiritually available if you're using drinking, starving, overeating, over exercising.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:58:48  You're not available to each other. You're not even available to yourself. It's not healthy, but you can get healthy. All those things are solvable. It's like you love this person. You want to stay with them. We need to get you healthy.

Speaker 2 00:59:00  Yes. You work, you help, you support. And then probably depends on the decision later on. Still. Still 41%. Around that number. get divorced from a first marriage? Yeah. Why?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 00:59:21  Very sad. I can't I don't know that I can answer that question either, because it's so varied. The material that shows up in my practice every single couple is like a new story. of nuance around the six stories, if you like. There's always other elements that I think God that hasn't presented before. That's new material. Yeah. I think it's very sad. I think people we live in a throwaway society, and I think people are very quick to pull the trigger. That's it. I'm out of here. I think it's very sad.

Speaker 2 01:00:00  I will read some some further numbers or causes of divorce. Yeah. this is a US study says lack of commitment is about 75%. Cause of divorce. infidelity, 60%? Probably. Yeah. Understand? Arguing conflict 58%. Marrying too young 45%. Financial problems 37%. Substance abuse 35%. Domestic violence 24%. So that's what the numbers tell us. Yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:00:40  Yeah, it's very sad.

Speaker 2 01:00:42  What can we learn from healthy relationships? Healthy marriages? Long term healthy marriages?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:00:49  I happen to know quite a lot of healthy long term marriages with children and grandchildren. And I've, I observed them you know I feel like they're in my sort of like laboratory of observation. Yeah. And it's really very, very interesting. I think there is a lot of, deep respect and love for one another. I think respect and love sit very closely. it's important that each person supports the other person in what they do. A lot of the time these are professional people I'm noticing. So they've both had very long professional careers.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:01:36  I was talking to a Casey the other day, a King's Council barrister, who's been married, for 45 years. His wife is an oncologist, and they have four, four children, three girls and a boy and some grandchildren. And he he's a very charismatic man, as they always are barristers. And he was saying that some of his male friends, when they've been married for a long time, were saying, oh, I've met this girl online and I'm, you know, meeting her once a week in a hotel. And we, you know, we're having relations and it's so exciting. And I can't believe, you know, that I've got this little secret world on this side. And he was saying, I don't want to know about it. I'm not interested. I love my wife. We have a wonderful marriage. We're four children. We have grandchildren. It's it's upsetting me listening to you. So I don't want to talk about it. It's not. It bears no resemblance to my family and my wife.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:02:42  And, And he was telling me this story, and I thought, that's so lovely that he is committed. And when when I was, him and his wife were with me, he's holding his wife's hand and he's asking if she's okay, and would she like another drink or would you like something else to eat? And. Very conscious of each other that they're okay, that they comfortable and happy and caring. Really caring for one another. And I see this with happy marriages they're concerned about. Are you okay? You know, even sometimes it's it's just a look. It's like you're, you know, you're okay. And it's like, yeah, no, I'm fine. You know, just constantly checking in with one another. I've. All right. It's a beautiful thing when I see a long marriage where there are we, it's really lovely and it's healthy.

Speaker 2 01:03:40  It probably this has to be developed over time.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:03:42  Of course it does. They've had plenty of, you know, health problems, health scares and lots of stuff going on.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:03:50  But ultimately there's a deep connection that I can feel with Long term happy couples?

Speaker 2 01:03:59  Yes. And I also think if we give each other a space to be who we are and to develop and to change into a person, because life happens and life changes us all the time, so we may have new, new view to the world. We want to change. We want new inspiration. If my partner is supporting me because what what probably you hear also often. Oh yeah, we just departed emotionally. I developed myself further and the other person not stay so, but just support each other and giving each other that space. But it has. It has something to do with caring about each other. Support allowed space.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:04:48  Yeah, definitely. Giving each other space to develop is a loving thing to do. rather than controlling someone, leave them. If they want to go and do an art degree or they want to go and train for something, it's like, encourage that.

Speaker 2 01:05:06  What else would you would you suggest families or couples in their way of interaction and communication to, to to have a long term, healthy family environment?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:05:21  I think it's a lovely thing that they do in the Jewish faith on a Friday.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:05:26  The whole family come together for Shabbat.

Speaker 2 01:05:29  Yes.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:05:30  I'm not Jewish, but I love this idea that they come together and they invite other family members. They sit around and break bread together. Yes, I think it's a very healthy thing to do. And in the Christian faith, we used to have a Sunday lunch after church. Normally people don't go to church anymore so much, but Sunday lunch was a time for the family to sit around a table and break bread. I think the the these rituals within a family are the glue that hold a family together so it doesn't have to be, a birthday or Christmas or Diwali or a bar mitzvah or whatever your particular discipline is to find rituals and celebrations to come together as a family as often as you can.

Speaker 2 01:06:23  Spend time together.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:06:24  Spend time together around it at different generations all around the table, talking and observing each other as we grow and develop.

Speaker 2 01:06:32  Finding the time to spend time together is is a big challenge in these days, I think because in my own family, like the children have their hobbies and we run through life and you have to have these routines in place and fix them.

Speaker 2 01:06:52  as, as. Okay. Sunday morning there is breakfast together or. Yeah. And then on vacations probably.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:06:59  Yeah. Vacations. But it's good at the beginning of the year is, you know when couples divorce quite often I help them with their itinerary for the year. So we have 12 months. Right. And the children have to go between two families. So they have to plan for 12 months. Who's going to have the children for Easter? Who's going to have the whatever the festivals are, you know, in their various religions who and some families, if it's a mixed culture, you know, they might have very strong, festivals. in India, for instance, that we don't have and we have Christmas and tend to celebrate Christmas. so they might have both, you know, they might have a Christian wedding and Hindu wedding. You know, they might embrace both, but that's great. More festivals, the better. More reasons to come together, the better. And just keep putting them in the diary.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:08:00  So I always say like, okay, you're looking at your itinerary, you've got Christmas, Easter, Diwali, you've got this, you've got that. Okay, so now what about the weekends when you can carve out time, family time and and look at the 12 months ahead? Where are we going to take our vacations? Are we going to go away half term? Easter. How are we going to construct our family and plan like you were planning a business, right? You're going to build a business. You're thinking, right, two years, we're not going to make any money, okay? But then then the third year, this is what I'm expecting to see on the bottom line. And the fourth year, this and the fifth year, this. It's the same with the relationship.

Speaker 2 01:08:37  It's. Yeah, I like that because this puts you on the control to plan for your family. Plan for what what what you want to achieve and also frame what your goals are because by planning you define okay, what is it I want? What is it I want out of this relationship? Sometimes we focus so much on the negative things, but forget the positive things.

Speaker 2 01:09:01  And just one example. we just as a with my wife and children, we went to one week on vacation and and at the end of the vacation, on the last day, we said, okay, what did you enjoy the most? Well, we do the this circle, like everyone would, would, would say like a couple of things they enjoyed the most during this day. So this gives us also the space to understand each other. Okay. What did they value. How can we plan then the next one. And and this focus of this is kind of a gratitude practice. I would also say by realizing what what what do we what do we like? What what are we grateful for? for this experience. And that's what we could do also in a relationship. probably by by defining what is the goal for, for for this relationship and what am I grateful for? My partner. What traits? How what am I grateful for in this relationship with. Maybe we should do this much often.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:10:11  Oh, I totally agree. I mean, I'm always saying if someone takes a a weekend away to Paris or you go and do something, always, you know, have an analysis afterwards. So which bits did you like best? You know, which restaurant did you like best? You know just what what is what did you find so rewarding in this trip to Paris? And then vice versa, you know. What was your best fit? And, and then, you know, you've got you're sort of framing also your experience And seeing people's genuine reactions like, oh no, I didn't like that restaurant or. Oh, that was so boring. When we went to do, you know, we went or we spent too much time in a taxi. Yeah, well you're right. We should walk more next time, you know, see Paris because it's so beautiful, you know? So it just also gives context for the next trip. It's like, oh, we could do that again. Would we come back here? Maybe.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:11:07  You know, it's like you start doing, an inventory of the things you do together, the things that you enjoy, and then you can think, oh, well, I can we can do more of that because that was fun for us or. No, I didn't really enjoy that. I don't want to do that again, you know. So but all the time you're learning about each other and you're growing and you're changing. Life changes us. And, something we might really love. Suddenly we don't like it anymore, you know? Oh, no, I've had my last snail or I've had my last, you know, piece of cod or whatever it is. I don't want any more cord. I don't want, you know. Oh, I thought you loved Cod. No, I don't like it anymore. I don't want that anymore. So it's always learning about our change. The changes that are in each other as well.

Speaker 2 01:11:54  it comes down to communicate and to listen to each other.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:11:57  Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 01:11:59  What do you appreciate about your relationship?

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:12:02  My, my. With my.

Speaker 2 01:12:03  Personal one. Yeah.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:12:05  Oh, God. So many things. I appreciate the fact that he's very smart. I appreciate the fact that he. He thinks laterally that he's very, He comes from a long line of academics. So I'm always learning from him. a very kind and likes women. He actually had a very strong mother who was a professor, so his mother always worked so. He's always grown up with strong women who've worked that he respects and admires. he speaks several languages, so he's interested in different cultures. And I like that very much. As someone who ostensibly English with a bit of Czech Republic in there, but he's interested because the English aren't really they're quite arrogant, the English, in the fact that they think, well, we speak English so everybody else can speak English, and we'll just. But actually, I love the fact that someone's interested in other cultures, because of course, I grew up in Iran.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:13:17  I'm interested in other and always have been. so I'm very blessed. I feel that I've been I waited a long time to meet the right person, and I was very lucky to meet my soulmate. So I'm very lucky. Girl. Yeah, Yeah. Thank you for asking.

Speaker 2 01:13:39  Well, of course I'm interested. Because I also think being a therapist might be a bit more critical sometimes. Yeah. So I've seen that with psychiatrists and therapists all the time. So being critical with other or what we want, we know what we want maybe better. Or as a therapist you know what you want. Yes. But then it's more difficult to find what you want because so much more picky.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:08  Yeah. No, I've definitely was very picky. For very long time.

Speaker 2 01:14:13  We should, we should, we should be.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:16  Super super.

Speaker 2 01:14:17  Picky. We have one life.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:18  I know as.

Speaker 2 01:14:19  Far as we know.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:20  As far as we know I wanted to get married. You know I wanted to love someone.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:26  I wanted to be loved. But I wanted to love. I wanted the experience of loving someone. So, But I didn't want to give my love to. To someone that I didn't think deserved my love. I wanted some, I wanted a big dog. I wanted a big, impressive man. And he came along.

Speaker 2 01:14:47  I'm glad you found that. Thank you. Thank you. What do you do in your life to stay in balance? Outside.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:54  Okay.

Speaker 2 01:14:55  The purpose of treatment.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:14:56  Yeah. So I, have lots of hobbies, I paint. so during Covid, that was marvelous, because I could do unlimited painting because we were at home so much. I play tennis to quite a high level. I have a coach, so I play tennis regularly. I do former Pilates twice a week. I walk a lot all over London. I walk rather than take a taxi or go on the tube. I travel quite a lot. Yes. and when I travel now, I try and factor in a couple of days to just rest and relax and have some R&R.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:15:38  I do quite a lot of charitable work with International Animal Rescue, and I've been affiliated to them for 20 years. So I have I have 400 bears in India, in Agra that are rescued from the dancing bear trade. I have, a project in Borneo with orangutans, 720 baby orangutans rescued from, the decimation of the rainforest in Borneo. So I try and work environmentally. And for the animals, those are the only two charities that I personally give money to. But I'm also a member of the Drapers Company in the city. We have a lot of charitable organizations in education that we give money away to. So I'm affiliated with that as well. I've raised lots of money for Great Ormond Street and Well Child over the years. I've always kept myself involved with some sort of tithing work. I've been working with the first Battalion Welsh Guards for about 20 years, so I've been on exercise with them twice to Nairobi and Belize. I've been on many battlefield tours around the beaches of Normandy and Monte Cassino, and many different battle scenes to understand from a military perspective what they've been through.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:17:02  And I see soldiers for no money, every year who have suffered PTSD or lost limbs. I was part of a big cohort of people at Wellington Barracks to raise £2 million for the Welsh Guards Afghanistan appeal because there are infantry regiment, and they lost a lot of legs and arms when they went to Afghanistan standing on IEDs. So I do an awful lot of stuff outside of my prep that's really purposeful and passionate and, I just have to juggle because I have a.

Speaker 2 01:17:37  Very busy, busy.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:17:38  Busy practice. But it's it keeps me balanced because I can see what's going on out there. and I think it's really good to always stay in a place of humility.

Speaker 2 01:17:54  Thank you for sharing that with us today. And thank you also for the work you do. Working with families. It's needed. It's, it's, it's not just with one person. It's affecting the whole dynamic. The children, how they will grow up, how they will be with their children and children and grandchildren. So it's it's a wonderful work you do.

Speaker 2 01:18:17  thank you for that. Thank you for your time. I know you're busy. pleasure taking the time, being here with us and sharing your your your wisdom. Thank you.

Caroline Curtis Dolby 01:18:28  Thank you.