Breaking Codependency: Shame, Abuse, Addiction, and the Path to Recovery

Natasha Silverbell, Founder and CEO of Silverbell Global, joined Abdullah Boulad for an open and deeply human conversation about addiction, recovery, and the long journey back to self. She shares her path from public success to private struggle, speaking about substance use, emotional numbness, shame, relapse, and the moments that led her toward sobriety, healing, and a redefined sense of spirituality.

Together, they explore what ethical, sustainable recovery truly looks like, from building multidisciplinary teams and addressing gaps in aftercare to balancing leadership, motherhood, boundaries, and self-care. 

Tune in for a conversation that is honest, thoughtful, and grounded, one that speaks to the reality of recovery as a lived, evolving process rather than a fixed destination.

About Natasha Silverbell:
Natasha is the Founder of Silverbell Global and a recovery coach with lived experience at the heart of her work. Drawing from her personal journey and years of professional practice, she supports individuals and organizations in building ethical, compassionate, and sustainable approaches to recovery and leadership.

For further mental health information and support, visit The Balance RehabClinic website: https://balancerehabclinic.com/ 
 
Follow Abdullah Boulad:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdullahboulad/
https://www.instagram.com/abdullahboulad/
 
Follow Natasha Silverbell:
https://www.instagram.com/natashasilverbell/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/natasha-silver-bell-83237266/
 
You can order Abdullah’s book, ‘Living A Life In Balance’, here: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/...
 
Follow The Balance RehabClinic:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/thebalancerehabclinic/
 
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Transcript

Natasha Silver Bell 00:00:00  As my therapist likes to say. I married my dealer and she said, Natasha, did you ever buy substances again? And I was like, oh crap. That was our one thing we had in common. I ended up driving my kids drunk. I remember begging God to help save my life if I could just get home. I of course, I picked up again and I realized I really had a problem.

Abdullah Bullard 00:00:20  What stopped you from leaving earlier?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:00:22  Fear. This is the father of my children. I have five homes. Private planes. I'm fine. What right do you have to leave? I couldn't allow anybody into my life to even look me deeply in the eyes and see the pain that I was in. It was a month later where the police were finally called. I called 911 for the first time. The lived experience of someone like myself is ten times, if not a hundred times, more effective than a diagnostic clinician from Harvard or Yale. When a great therapeutic companion can work in alliance, as you know, with the the clinical team, it's like a marriage made in heaven.

Abdullah Bullard 00:00:59  What kind of clients do you work with today?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:01:04  The ones that everyone else won't.

Abdullah Bullard 00:01:07  How do you see it in the in the US?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:01:09  Developing an accidental overdose for people 50 and under is still the number one killer in the United States.

Abdullah Bullard 00:01:18  Welcome to the Living a Life Imbalanced podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balance Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Natasha Silver Bell, a sober recovery coach and founder of Silver Bell Global, a pioneering coaching company with over 200 trained professionals worldwide. In this episode, Natasha shares her personal story from growing up in a religious household. The winning Miss Michigan, and pursuing a modeling career that led to her falling into addiction and an abusive relationship, she thought she had no way out. We explored the moment she knew she had to leave and the role shame plays in addiction treatment. Natasha explains how her coaching blends nervous system regulation, lived experience and even insights from Navy Seals and why she believes the mental health industry still has a long way to go.

Abdullah Bullard 00:02:17  As overdose is still the number one killer in America today. I hope you will enjoy Natasha. What motivated you to do what you do today?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:02:29  I wish I had a succinct answer for that. Oh, it really was divine intervention. Not only do I have a personal journey in recovery, but I think many people do and don't end up doing this, you know, because this is not for the faint of heart. It does tire you at times, but I think when you see somebody rise from the ashes like you did, it makes it all worth it. and it was by default, it just it just happened because I just really cared about helping another mom stay sober.

Abdullah Bullard 00:03:02  What happened into you? So you you felt the need to to jump in and help others?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:03:09  I was in a, in a phase and a season about 17 years ago where I knew I needed to leave the father of my children as a sober mom. I had three young children and I know I can't change other people.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:03:25  And when I was realizing that I thought, I don't want to break up the family, but what choice do I have if I'm not able to remain sober in this marriage? And so I had to walk away from a lot of comfortability. And again, no, no parent that I have ever met wants to leave a home where their both biological parents are there. It's not it's not something somebody looks forward to doing. But it became clear that I needed to. So I call that my baptism by fire. I walked away from a lot of resources and comfortability, and I did. I walked away and broke the home, so to speak, in order to create safety and stability. And and in doing that, I realized how many women and men stay in a relationship that is not modeling the behavior they would want their children to have because of fear, fear of financial insecurity, the fear of being alone, the fear of just not having safety. And so in a home that is. And so when I realized I had to walk away, a lot of women came to me quietly and privately in New York City.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:04:41  And I was I raised my children on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and they said, how have you been able to stay sober? How were you able to get divorced? Please, please, I don't know how to help myself. And so that's organically without being a business. I started mentoring women to find their truth in order to create safety and stability for their family, whether they stayed married or they chose to leave.

Abdullah Bullard 00:05:07  Obviously, you had to go through your own struggle first to understand what it needs and what it takes to overcome it and and and how to be there for others. so what what was the addiction side you were you were into during during that time year of your marriage.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:05:26  At that time? When I, I put down substances 17 years ago consistently because I've been in the recovery journey for 22 years and I've been sober 17 years now. And at that time it was amphetamines during the day. like it was called at apex at the time because, it's, and it was a stimulant and it enabled me to drink because I can't hold my liquor very well.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:05:56  And so then I would have my vodka lemonade throughout the day. And it was really sad. I ended up driving my kids drunk in the Hamptons, where we had a summer home, and it was, I remembered begging God to help save my life if I could just get home. And then the next day, I of course, I picked up again and I realized I really had a problem. So it was amphetamines and alcohol and and benzodiazepines like Valium, Xanax.

Abdullah Bullard 00:06:23  What type of release or emotional release did you get from consuming this.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:06:28  At that point? None. But initially just, I didn't know what else to do. So it was such a habit by then, and I was so not only physically but emotionally, mentally addicted to doing something, to not feel my feelings. I didn't want to be doing it anymore. And that's usually when the end is near. When you don't want to be using, you don't want to be drinking. You. You don't want to have to use. And and I still was.

Abdullah Bullard 00:06:56  You mentioned the difficult relationship. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:07:02  As my therapist likes to say, I married my dealer and I was like, what do you mean that's so offensive? I didn't marry my dealer. And she said, Natasha, when you met him, did you ever buy substances again? And I was like, oh crap, you're right. I never had. And that was our common denominator. That was our one thing we had in common. We liked to party together. And then when I became a mother, everything slowed down. Things changed, and I tried to do both. And that's not really smart for anybody, let alone somebody who does really have a codependency, codependency and dependency problem. But yeah, I didn't have a sense of agency yourself, so I had lost myself in the relationship and I will. I will say that at that time I was very codependent.

Abdullah Bullard 00:07:51  Codependent because of.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:07:53  I had nothing. What did I have? I was a failed model.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:07:56  I was with Ford and it was right before 911, I remember. And I got fired from Ford Models, and I'd been with them for four years, and I had my clients loved me. But when you keep not showing up, eventually they're going to replace you. Okay. And so I didn't finish my college degree. I didn't have a career. That was something to lean on. I was married and I had just become a mother shortly after nine over 11.

Abdullah Bullard 00:08:23  Did you feel your only purpose was to be a mother at that time and no other purpose if you would be out of this relationship?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:08:31  Correct. And looking back, I'm so grateful that I got the opportunity to throw with the pendulum. Always swing. So to to beat one, let's say addiction. Usually replacing it with something else is always important. And those are healthy passions. So I don't want to say addictions, and I did. I became Mother Earth and I coast left my children and I nursed my children. And there were four years of sobriety where I was giving birth, nursing, co-sleeping.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:08:58  It was beautiful. And then I thought I had it all figured out. And I relapsed for about six months. And that's the period I'm talking about, where the amphetamines and the alcohol was so intense.

Abdullah Bullard 00:09:08  Right?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:09:08  Yeah, because I was trying to make the marriage work. I didn't have a problem. Yeah, I'm a mom now. Moms don't have problems.

Abdullah Bullard 00:09:15  Yes, but you saw the problem. You were aware about your situation and this relationship. Something is not going well. What? What stopped you from leaving earlier?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:09:25  What a great question. Fear. Fear of. I didn't have a college degree again. I was a failed model. Where was I going to go? What was I going to do? Let me just figure this out. This is the father of my children. I have five homes. Private planes. I'm fine. Natasha. Who do you think you are? What right do you have to leave? So the self doubt that I should leave because I was raised in the Midwest, in Montana, you know, in Michigan.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:09:59  Like that's where I'm from. So I'm like cornbread in America where you just suit up and show up and do the right thing and be a good wife and. Yeah. And I also didn't tell everybody how awful it was in the relationship. And I am not going to point the finger at him. I chose to be there. But let's just say elephants don't marry giraffes. And if one person starts to get sober and on a path of healing and wellness and the other one doesn't, you're going to have a problem.

Abdullah Bullard 00:10:27  Yeah. A couple couple of things come into my mind. Like, it sounds to me like you did feel, you should not feel bad about your situation, right? but there is also this kind of codependency in the room. Big time. and and and what about shame?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:10:48  I was so I would have. I would have been crushed. Had I looked at shame. I couldn't even I couldn't even peek under that hood. Yet I wasn't ready to go there. That that I could finally grapple with the shame of the relationship.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:11:05  The partner I had chosen to marry, the partner I had chosen to have children with, the partner that I had fully bought into. I'm not blaming anybody for those decisions. And then when you get sober and you look around just enough one day at a time and go, oh shit, what am I going to do? And that's when I realized that I had to walk away. And not until I safely got into I was divorced and in my own home for the first time. That's when I realized what, shame and trauma I was watching. I love this story. I was watching this movie with Julianne Hough and Josh Duhamel called something Heaven. It's about a domestic violence survivor woman, and she she plans an escape, and she gets on a bus, and she goes down and she gets a new town. And and by the end of that movie, I remember because I was in my home for the first time, I think I was three months in this new home. And. I looked up signs of an abuser and online next to signs of an abuser.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:12:17  You know how it would list? This is like 2011? Yes, it would list all the different signs. Guess what's on the other side of it? Signs of a victim.

Abdullah Bullard 00:12:28  Oh.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:12:29  And I don't like that word. I'm still wrestle with it. But yeah, for all intents purposes, I was definitely a victim of of abuse.

Abdullah Bullard 00:12:40  But you did realize at that time that it was. Yeah, you were a victim.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:12:46  I it took me leaving in order to even wrestle with the idea that I can't believe I stayed as long as I did. And then the shame could, could take hold in a sense where I could acknowledge it. And I started trauma therapy for the first time.

Abdullah Bullard 00:13:01  Fast forward. You are today with all your knowledge and all your information. What would you tell to yourself? At that time?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:13:13  Well, I have the three children and go back in time. Well, obviously, you know, that's what I do now for for a living is help other other people. I wouldn't say women in particular.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:13:23  Other people find what is going to bring them the most peace at night and what's disturbing their peace and, a gentle, a gentle touch. Even just. I couldn't allow anybody into my life to even look me deeply in the eyes and see the pain that I was in. In fact, that was one of the catalysts right before I surrendered, and I'm I my sobriety date is August 5th of 2008, and it was a month before, and a friend somehow got through on a phone to me because I was in an abusive relationship. You are control is the first thing. So I didn't have money, I didn't have friends, and I allowed all these. I wasn't in touch with my family, so I had allowed this person to isolate me. And somehow a nursery school mother, who was somewhat of a very emotionally intelligent woman, had gotten through on the phone line. And I was in the Hamptons and she said, oh, how are you, Natasha? I've been worried about you. I haven't heard from you.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:14:27  And her name was Sarah. And I said, oh, I'm fine. Everything's great. You know, I'm out here in the Hamptons. Everything's wonderful and all. It was a very short conversation and I'll never forget it because it really was a catalyst, she said. Okay, Natasha. Just don't lie to yourself. And I was so mad at her. She could see right through me. And I was so angry that that she told me the truth. Really? And that's what you need. You need good people around you that tell you the truth in a very gentle way. It was a phone call. It wasn't even FaceTime back then. And and I could hang up the phone. But that truth, when truth does hit your soul and it starts talking to you. It was a month later that I was. I came to a screeching bottom where where the police were finally called. I called 911 for the first time.

Abdullah Bullard 00:15:26  Can you tell me a little bit about your recovery process, how and what helped you to get into it.

Abdullah Bullard 00:15:32  And how was the process for you till you were able to get out of it and feel long term stable?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:15:42  I think this is like the catalyst that I always like to know when people who've gone before me, how did you do it? How did you do it? How did you one leave a co-dependent relationship with resources, with children, thinking you even had the right to create a life of safety or stability or be valued? You know that that there was so much loss in my identity. And, it started with 12 step programs. and I had dabbled in them before. But the truth is, is many 12 step programs or IOPs or groups that are out there, it's the power of connection in those groups that matter. And so I was, I was fortunate enough enough to find a circle of women. I went to women's meetings and there were women who in New York City, in the Hamptons. I was very blessed who were doctors, lawyers, clinicians, very accomplished women who were sitting in a circle talking about their failures, their vulnerabilities, how they messed up.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:16:54  And, you know, one of the traditions is that you don't talk about what you do in those circles, like your professional life is your professional life. But the way people present you kind of can infer that they are doing okay in life, or there's a sense of confidence or the way they dress or the way they carry themselves, the way they speak. And I, I was crying every day. I was I don't even I wouldn't even call myself, quote unquote, a human because there was nothing there was no substance inside of me. There was just emptiness. And I, I remember listening to these women who were gentle. They were kind. They were loving. They looked me in the eyes when I came. And I'm going to get emotional like nobody looked. I didn't allow anyone to look me in the eyes before that. You know, there was so much. Now I can know what it was. Shame. But I didn't know what it was. I didn't know there was so much that wasn't there.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:17:55  That wasn't me. And so when you have other people who actually can look through, like that woman on the phone who called me. She she heard in my voice. She she was like a bullet in the night, so to speak. She shot through the dark and I could. She pierced my soul and she woke it up. And because it heard truth. And these women were also speaking truth to me. And I surely had one eyebrow up. I still thought there was some catch here. Or why are they so nice? But when people speak to your soul and not to the exterior, which had been my whole life valued for what I looked like as a model or valued for what dress I wore. And I loved that I'm not. I still like to look nice. There's nothing wrong with looking nice, but I think it's there's a different resonance that happens, a connection that happens when somebody like you and I are sitting here and you're caring about what I have to say with no motive.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:18:58  Just want to hear the story. Yes. And there's there's a comfortability there.

Abdullah Bullard 00:19:04  I mean, you have been modeling. You mentioned that you've you've become Miss Michigan. but if you are in this world of how you look, how you how others perceive you, you get these compliments, do you, do you feel that you get your kind of self esteem from this outside outside world. But on the inside you felt.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:19:31  Well, I didn't know my inside was missing until, you know, it's so vapid, it's so empty that you know you're left with a huge addiction or you're left with a huge codependency or abuse or neglect and all the clothes. I think when I was first getting sober and I was shopping, going to designer stores, or I would have moments of awareness where I would go, yeah, this isn't going to fix anything. This isn't this handbag isn't going to do it. But I still bought it. I still wanted the latest handbag. I still wanted the latest designer brands. That's okay.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:20:14  Like I do it now because I'm choosing it. It's not choosing me. It's kind of like I wear the dress. It doesn't wear me. Yes. You know, there's a difference in how I get to experience my body, my style, versus needing it, I want it.

Abdullah Bullard 00:20:32  What did it give you at that time? You know, going buying the latest handbag.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:20:37  I felt relief there wasn't. It is an addiction to shopping. It was an immediate relief of. All right, I have this new dress. I'm going to be okay for the. And I didn't realize it was limited. You wear it once or twice and you're like, well, now everybody's seen me in it, so now I can't wear it, you know, and and so those because I was sober and I was aware of my choices and actions, no one was telling me not to go shopping. It was that. And that's a good thing, actually, when you have the freedom to have your own internal self-awareness and own conscious dialogue versus pushing against maybe a husband that's saying, don't shop, don't do this, because then you're fighting that voice and not your own, and it's a great distraction.

Abdullah Bullard 00:21:20  Oh, interesting. So I kind of also shopping addiction, which is which always fulfils the inner inner world and the emotions or the.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:21:30  Whole experience with a little shopping addiction.

Abdullah Bullard 00:21:33  I mean, I mean, certainly I had some time in my life where when I went shopping, I went shopping a lot, but then I, I had for years the same clothes and I never wore them.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:21:46  I do I have the tags still on and some of them. Yeah.

Abdullah Bullard 00:21:49  And this was like, yeah. After a couple of times I realized, okay, I, I lost, I lost today, I lost my appetite to go for shopping unless I really need something. but I do it from a different motivation. But if can we get back to this moment in the Hamptons where you were meeting this, this successful women, as you mentioned? Because what I read from what you're saying is kind of Are you looking up to them in a way? How could they? How could they have this problem or the same problem? And did it help you to find your self-esteem while while seeing others also suffering?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:22:35  I wouldn't say that I couldn't believe they didn't have a problem because I believed them.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:22:41  I believed their stories were so horrible that no one would make this up. So there was a lot of truth in what they were saying, and I don't know really what it was over time, because it took about a year for me to really get my feet underneath me in this process and start trauma therapy. And, there was a comfortability. I don't know if that's self-esteem, but there was a that exhale I would get with the new outfit. There was an exhale in a, in a release of knowing that I didn't mess up my life as much as I thought I did or if I did, there's a way through. So they gave me hope.

Abdullah Bullard 00:23:23  But also connection. You mentioned before the connection was helpful.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:23:29  Yeah. We can't ever do this alone. And I you know there's a lot of talk and, and I'm sure we'll talk about it eventually. But there's a lot of spirituality that happens in, in a lot of recovery. And for me I had so much religious trauma from an organized religion growing up that I wasn't interested in conversations about God or spirituality.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:23:53  I, I wasn't angry at it, but I just was. I've been burned by the organized religion that I was raised in. And, now what I understand what really, let's say God is or spiritual capital or relationships and connection is the expression of love. Because you can't have you can have it with yourself and of course, with a divine creator, let's say. But truly what? What? All the love that I might have with, let's say my creator is of no value if I can't share it. And so that expression of love was what they were giving me. They were loving me. And I didn't understand that at the time, but they were showing compassion and earnest, earnest care. Each time I made it to them. Some of the same ladies introduced me to the group in New York City that I would go to every day from 545 to 715 at the McGraw-Hill building. one of the granddaughters of McGraw-Hill, the publishing company, they donated a space. It was in a very nice conference room.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:25:02  So I wasn't in a church basement, which was challenging for me with religious trauma. And so I remember the women used to say to me every Wednesday they would say, you made it to us. And I was in my head. I thought they remembered that I. I was struggling to come. They knew how hard it was for me to leave the house with the three small children. A partner who didn't want me sober, who made it actually very arduous for me to go to meetings.

Abdullah Bullard 00:25:32  You mentioned religious trauma. It's the first time I hear that. Yeah. can you tell tell me a little bit about how how did it get to this situation? How did you grow up in this religious environment and what type of restrictions, and limitations was on you?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:25:55  I had very loving and well-meaning parents who were looking for a moral structure to raise their three daughters. And I'm the youngest of three girls, and they chose a religion that I still value to this day. I wouldn't say I identify as a seventh day Adventist, but I was raised seventh day Adventist, which means Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is Shabbos.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:26:16  Similar to Judaism. But you believe in Jesus. It's like a sister religion to Mormonism. And it it has some great values. You know, don't drink caffeine, don't eat meat. They're all raised. We're raised vegetarian. No alcohol, no cigarettes. They have some of the longest lifelong devotee studies out there. Our seventh day Adventists because of these health and wellness practices. and I think with a lot of man made religion because I like to say Christ came to start a relationship, not a religion. it became very shaming that if you didn't act a certain way, you were a heathen. You needed to repent and you needed to do penance or whatever it is that you need to do in order to be a good Christian, be a good girl. And, the specific piece. So that was I loved. I loved being raised that way up until about nine. And then then I think I'll, I'll, I think all young adults go through like a prodigal son journey in their teenage years. And, I certainly did and ended up in, in my addiction.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:27:28  But when I was 19, I was at miss USA, competing on a world stage, and I ended up in the top six and I had to compete on national television in a swimsuit, in a beautiful pageant gown and wear jewelry. And in this religion, you're not allowed to glorify yourself, period. Let alone jewelry. Like we weren't allowed to have jewelry or, sequins on a dress, let alone a swimsuit on national television. And so the youth pastor at the time, when I came back from Miss Miss USA, he said, I want you to know that I advocated for you not to be thrown out of the church. I said, what do you mean? Why would I be thrown out of the church. And he said, because you were glorifying yourself. And it was on a Friday night. So I was competing on Sabbath, and there were other ways I could have sent in a videotape. I nobody ever addressed any of this with me as even a thought, and it didn't run through my head.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:28:24  He goes, but then, because this was my top six question, Bob Gordon was the emcee that year. And on live television, you pull out a question to answer. And my question was, besides your friends and family, what's the one thing you couldn't live without? And at the time, my heart was still dedicated to Christ. Like, there was no reason I. So I said I couldn't live without Christ beside my side. And so because of that, the church then didn't dismember me, so to speak. And then they wanted to put me in a position to raise money for them. So that hurt?

Abdullah Bullard 00:29:03  Yes.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:29:03  Not their fault, I get it. I run institutions now. You know, we need resources. But, understanding that process was really hurtful. and I think it just aided in my prodigal son journey.

Abdullah Bullard 00:29:18  It didn't help, obviously. Also when when you when you were in your relationship later on and, to make a stab to leave and, and a lot of shame.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:29:29  A lot of shame. So I was compounded. I had no idea how much shame. I was really caring, that I wasn't good enough for the church, that I wasn't good enough to be anything but this submissive mother that really wasn't recognized in the relationship. And I had no credit card to my name. I mean, it was it was pretty, shaming.

Abdullah Bullard 00:29:53  How how do you feel today about, how spiritual? What's your how would you define yourself? spiritually religious oriented?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:30:04  I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and that's his. That's the extent of it. You know, I wouldn't identify with one organized religion or the other. I love studying, you know, the father of my children is Jewish. So I studied Judaism for a really long time. My kids were all bar and bat mitzvah and went through the mikvah. And and I think it's a beautiful faith, as is, you know, understanding how anybody walks through this life and what they choose to believe in. Give them that right, give them that honor.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:30:34  Give them that freedom of choice, I think is the most important thing that I really respect about how I came. Let's say back to Christ, if you will. and it was, it was after I got divorced and had my safe space and I did my trauma work that, let's say it's like a secret love affair I have with Christ. You know, he just started talking to me.

Abdullah Bullard 00:30:59  But also all it was beautiful, I believe, is that you believe in Christ. Beyond what human has created or beyond the human made religious. Religions we talk about today. Shame. What is your definition of shame today?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:31:22  It's like a prison. There's no way out. It's like a prisoner of your own mind. You're helpless and frozen. And unless somebody sees you like those women did. Or I friend that phone call in the dark of truth. You're a hostage for the rest of your life with shame. Unless something penetrates it. It's very powerful.

Abdullah Bullard 00:31:55  And how? How do you get out of it?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:31:59  Through surrounding yourself with people who see you.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:32:01  If you could see here I had all the resources in the world from the outside drivers, maids, butlers, homes, access. Where am I going? What am I doing? What shame should I even have the right to have? You see, I was so in it that there's no way I could have seen through it unless that phone call came in. But also the right timing. And I do believe that was divine intervention. And that's kind of how God works. It's not all, hey, let's go to church and sing Kumbaya. That's not that wouldn't have landed for me. I would have done it because I'm a good girl, right? But it wouldn't have been effective, you know? And the truth hurts.

Abdullah Bullard 00:32:44  Do you see any connection between shame and, And self-esteem?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:32:50  You mean the lack of it? Yeah.

Abdullah Bullard 00:32:53  Yeah, probably. I mean, if if I grew up being raised in a way Where I have a healthy self-esteem also growing up. I value my inner self and my personality.

Abdullah Bullard 00:33:10  Who I am instead of just what I need to be. What I supposed to show to the outside world. Why? I'm just thinking, why should I then feel shame about who I am and what I do?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:33:26  Yeah, it's such a conundrum because we were given, talents and hobbies and passions that would bring self-esteem. Let's say we had loving parents. but when you have a an environment where you need to perform in order to be accepted, I think it's a big contradiction. So what is more valuable? And because we do value what other people think, I did value what my friends or family thought or the environment of the religion. I did feel myself conforming to what they wanted while all along not asking myself, because what does a little girl know?

Abdullah Bullard 00:34:13  Yes.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:34:14  What? Where are you going to get your reflection from? And so yeah, it is much as parents as I know, as a mother now, is so valuable and important to be that anchor for your children. They are going to go on and develop their own ideas regardless of what you do.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:34:32  And you kind of want that. You want them to have that agency. Yes. and I don't think I was told I shouldn't. It's just that I never had the critical thinking or the awareness, to think for myself.

Abdullah Bullard 00:34:48  I don't I don't say that, we have not to value any other opinions, but I would say if there is the right balance between valuing oneself and valuing other opinions. This. This eases the shame of of, being afraid to speak up or impostor in general. Obviously today you you you go out, you do speeches, you present yourself. And it all comes with, with self-confidence and and, with the knowledge, with with the experience as well. when, when you look back, your recovery process certainly was not a one way street. how long did it take you? The ups and downs. and and what happened and what what happened then to go down again. Relapse. And what happened then later, later in that stage to to get out of it again.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:35:54  I think the illusion when you have a dependency on a substance, let's say, is that or you have a codependency that if that person would just treat me better, my mother, my sister and my brother, for me, it was the father of my children.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:36:09  If he would just treat me better, be nice to me, I wouldn't have to drink and use so much. And I really believed that. And then when I realized, regardless of how he treats me, I have to put the drugs in the alcohol down. and I did that for 3 or 4 years. Right. And then I had my six month relapse towards the beginning of my relapse, at the end of my first phase of sobriety, I, I really thought I had it figured out. There's this elusive phrase you'll hear with people who aren't surrendered to a consistent solution yet. And that's that's a big statement to make, but nonetheless, I got it this time. I've got it.

Abdullah Bullard 00:37:01  You're on top of it.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:37:01  I've got it. I'm not. I don't have a problem. I was a party girl. I'm a mother now. Everything's going to be fine. I can just drink safely. And that's the illusion, is that one day I'll be able to drink and use safely. And I really thought I could.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:37:18  And so. Dun dun dun dun dun. There I went off on, on my journey that I, I truly did need. Unfortunately. because now the kind of recovery I have today and and then surrendered to if we will. And I like the word surrender as definition. I don't remember who said it is to move to the winning side. So for me, I'm not giving something up. I'm choosing to win. And and I like that.

Abdullah Bullard 00:37:48  And trust there is a better side.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:37:50  Well, I certainly know what doesn't work at that point. And I've done the market research, shall we say, to know what didn't work.

Abdullah Bullard 00:37:57  It took you how many years.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:37:59  To to finally surrender?

Abdullah Bullard 00:38:00  Yes.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:38:01  I think there's a there's a phase in, when you're beginning to think about recovery called pre contemplation. Right. And so in my private thoughts, when I started thinking that I was going to stop just the drugs, that conversation started at age 23. I finally surrendered at age 32.

Abdullah Bullard 00:38:24  Okay.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:38:26  There's a process.

Abdullah Bullard 00:38:29  And this led you later, to create something beautiful. Helping others. tell tell us a bit more.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:38:39  so. So how it began, is a is a fun story. So I was newly divorced, right? A year I'd taken a year to really heal. I did a lot of acupuncture. I think acupuncture is something in New York City. I went every week for about three months and I did trauma therapy. I went to a lot of meetings. I started working with others, and I became like the mother I always wanted to be because I didn't have the toxicity of the relationship in the home. So I always had a candle and incense. You know, this is in my first home, my first safe house, so to speak, where I watched that movie. something heaven. I'm going to remember what it is anyways. And I started to accept that I had I had been in something really awful. Right. And so in that year, I was in the rooms a lot. And as I mentioned, there's lawyers, doctors, judges, and I was sponsoring a lot of women.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:39:32  And after meetings, these professionals would pull me aside and say, Natasha, you're really good at working with others. You need to do this professionally. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, what are you talking about? Do this professionally. This is a free program. They're like, yeah, this is but there's a whole world out there of the recovery industry, which was I had no idea about because I actually didn't go to treatment. I went to the rooms. and so I said, well, I didn't finish my undergrad. You know, I'd have to go back to university. And they said, well, you can do that. But I had three small children, newly divorced. I didn't have time to to work or really do school, although I did go back and get into a continuing education program at NYU. I'm very proud of that. But I haven't finished. but they said go get certified as a coach. And I was like, do you mean like for losers? Because that's what losers do.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:40:26  They become coaches. And I was so judgmental of the industry. Not understanding like coaching, industry recovery, coaching, therapeutic companion, counselor, advisor, whatever you want to call it. The lived experience of someone like myself is ten times, if not a hundred times, more effective than a diagnostic clinician from Harvard or Yale. And I've witnessed that. Now I can say that with confidence. And it's not one or the other. It's a both and moment when a great therapeutic companion can work in alliance, as you know, with the clinic, the clinical team. It's like a marriage made in heaven, and it's an effective model now that that runs in our company. So these. This one particular psychologist, he said go do this program. So it was back then I phoned in every day and a conference code and acknowledged my attendance. It was a two year program called the Ben Dean Mentor Coach Program through ICF. And it was very labor, some very intensive. I really understood techniques of working with someone in the coaching arena.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:41:30  And then in addition to that, I had friends who said, there's this new program in New York State called Recovery Coaching. Go take the courses. And and I did all those courses and was in their pilot program and got certified. And it taught me some things. It was a it was something to think about, different pathways. But I think that there's a this it factor, you know, when you really understand how to be of service and help others, you either have it all the window dressing and degrees, they're nice. Maybe they shine here and polished there, but there's there's just something someone has to be of service and help others and know how to do that, which I now can accept and know that that's a talent of mine. and so my first client was a mother of two coming out of treatment, and a lawyer friend of mine in matrimonial attorney said, I need help keeping her sober. I'm going to give you your shot. And so I, I went over and would meet her a couple of times a week.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:42:31  Now. My kids were in school, so I didn't have a lot of time, but I gave her a couple hours, 3 or 4 times a week. And then six weeks into this, the lawyer said, oh, you need to go in and meet with the forensic psychologists that's been overseeing your work with the patient. I'm like, hello? Help a sister out. I had no idea that I was being supervised by a forensic psychologist. Talk about imposter syndrome. And he's like, you're doing fine. Just go in and sit down and and tell. Tell him what you're doing. And so I did. And I walk into the room and he's sitting in his chair like us. He won't look up. He has his pad, his paper. He does have a seat. I'm like, oh, shit. And so I sit down and he's like, what are you doing with my patient? Still won't look at me.

Multiple Speakers 00:43:16  Like, okay, here's what I'm doing.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:43:18  We're going grocery shopping together.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:43:20  I'm teaching her how to walk down aisles where we won't get activated, to go down the alcohol aisle, or to take different streets home. Or if the snotty she had a two and a four year old. So if the snotty nose kid was crying and having a temper tantrum and the zipper is stuck, you know, how do you not become activated as a mother because you don't know how to calm your newly sober mom. So there's a lot of shame there. You don't know how to parent, and you don't feel like you deserve to be a mom. And so, I would just model to her. I didn't even talk to her, I just modeled. I'm like, let's do this together. Here. Watch me. And I would just. It wasn't even like I would say those words. I didn't have to. And then we would do chores together and I would help. I would just get the kids busy doing chores, sticker charts, play board games, read stories, you know, fold the laundry, just be present.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:44:15  So it was actually what we do today, and I'll finish in a minute with the psychiatry psychologist said to me is we do poorly vagal informed regulation. And that's exactly what I was doing without realizing it. And then so what? He put his pen down and he finally looked up at me, and he goes, because it's working.

Abdullah Bullard 00:44:34  Yes.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:44:35  And it was like this adrenaline relief rush of validation, he said. I asked the patient, you've been getting better. And he had been working with her for many years and with no real long term success, consistently out of treatment. And and she said, the one thing that's made all the difference is you. I just she showed me how to be a mom. We all need support. We need guidance. And so, looking back at how this company was built literally through through just being of service, you know, yes, it was a professional hat I was wearing at that time. but he started referring me case after case after case. Yeah.

Abdullah Bullard 00:45:17  It's a nice story. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. You mentioned the political theory and. What.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:45:26  Yeah.

Abdullah Bullard 00:45:27  Which is based on the nervous system and and being together. was it also just being a companion, being someone there? So they are not just by themselves?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:45:37  Well, exactly. And so I like to get to the micro of that. You know, like to go deeper. So what is it about being with somebody that's so calming? Because we're very healed people, I'd like to say. And so we're very calm and gentle with each other. But what if you're very activated? I'm not going to enjoy being around you so much. Right. So when you assign a therapeutic companion, understanding the science of what's actually going on in that relationship, why is it so effective? Because there are companions out there not so good. I wouldn't hire them to save my life, and they might have a lot of degrees, and I've done it forever. But they're anxious. Or they.

Abdullah Bullard 00:46:17  Have.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:46:18  They're nervous that they had a rupture. Maybe they had a loss in their life recently, and they're not ready to come back and be of service. And so we really invest in our staffing and making sure they have a mentor. They have their therapeutic supports. And we do care more about our teams than we do our clients. Sorry, because if our teams aren't solid and sound and healthy and stable supervised, the client's not getting anything.

Abdullah Bullard 00:46:44  What you're talking about is kind of a core regulation. That's right. Of of each other or being there as the calming presence.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:46:52  That's right. Because, and some of the skeptics in the field, now that I think they really take a knee because they know how effective this is. And initially, I think when you were beginning your work and I was beginning mine, you know, or at least certainly in 2011, 12 people were putting what what is this? You're not a therapist. You can't do that. No, we're not diagnosing and treating.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:47:12  That's right. We need you for that. Will you work with us? Is that we don't want to create codependency. We don't want to create enablement or, you know, so that they can't be without us. But therein lies the most important piece that these these patients, if you will. They are so broken down. That's we get the ones that come in and out of treatment a lot. And so that's not effective. That's a piece of the puzzle. What do they do in real life real time when they go back to New York, Los Angeles, you know, London, wherever they might be? How do we stabilize them in their real time environment without creating dependence? But in order to get there, you still have to create regulations so they even know how to regulate. And then we create independent regulation and we help taper that process.

Abdullah Bullard 00:48:02  What kind of clients or do you work with today?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:48:07  The ones that everyone else won't. It's true. It's true, I think. I think there is a beauty and suffering the way I have and our most therapeutic.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:48:19  The lived experience is so important for people who work in Silver Bell. and, and sometimes when their stories are so horrific and they've healed on the other side, I want that. I don't want the. I've been to treatment one time. For someone to work with Silver Bell. I need to hear that. You've. You've been there. You've seen the dark side, faced it and lived to tell the tale. And so we'll work with the cases where it's what people call a hot potato. They've been in and out of a psych ward. 1020 we had a case 39 times once. You know, these are the cases where, traditional models or even second or third time, if you're going to, you should get you should go to treatment, go to an IOP, go back to therapy and be fine, you know. But that's the more complexity is what we're seeing today.

Abdullah Bullard 00:49:12  So you help them like getting a coach, companion and then also support around that or coordinate other treatments around it or how does it work? Exactly.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:49:25  So there is an assessment process about 2 to 3 weeks of understanding histrionics. We want to know every neuroscience, every doctor, every discharge summary. But usually the identified patient isn't coming to us. It's the family, of course. Yes. And the family is contracting us. And then we see what treatment team, clinical members, wherever they've been in the world, have worked and what hasn't and what they're open to. And so we put another multidisciplinary team together. But it takes a minute. We're not like, I have a lot of families. It's like, let me just see a treatment plan. Like, I can't just show you a treatment plan that doesn't. I get I need to know your family and it's not a oh, you just want to make more money. And no, I want to be effective. And that's the key ingredient is I want to do what works. And we're not going to know what works until we really get in there. And that's why we give ourselves a 2 to 3 week assessment period.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:50:17  because I certainly don't want to set up another formula that worked for Susie. It's not going to work for Joe.

Abdullah Bullard 00:50:23  Is there a specific area you you can offer this service, or do the coaches travel to anywhere in the world?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:50:30  It's not just the coaches. They're a piece of the multidisciplinary team will lead with a case manager, a lead clinician, a lead psychiatrist, and then we put the therapeutic companion in place. I typically don't take cases that are in crisis. We have if somebody is coming out of treatment acted very quickly. But we like a little bit more of a strategic approach. And we have three verticals. You know, from a business perspective, one is primary substance abuse, primary eating disorder in primary mental health.

Abdullah Bullard 00:51:00  How many people do work now for Silver Bell.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:51:04  I'd say about 200.

Abdullah Bullard 00:51:06  About 200. Yeah. And how do you make sure that everyone is trained the same way, which obviously you did naturally in the beginning. But then now everyone should do this core regulation, nervous system understanding and and practicing it.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:51:25  It is very important. so we do have a training program. We have different high level professionals that have allowed us to film them live, and then we save those as videos. And when people get onboarded and they pass all of our interview process, they have to go in and do these trainings. Yeah.

Abdullah Bullard 00:51:44  Is there a specific coach which fits to a certain person or, is it one size fits all?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:51:52  No, please don't say that. it is a chemistry match. And that's our COO now, doctor Taryn Amelio. She is just brilliant. She's been with us a year and a half. She has taken over all of our intakes and onboarding and case conceptualization and and so we will case concept together because I know the roster just as well as she does. But, there's, there's a, a sense you have of disposition of one person for the affect of the client I.

Abdullah Bullard 00:52:26  I heard you once say you use also Navy Seals. In what capacity? In what way and how do they help?

Natasha Silver Bell 00:52:35  Oh, what a great question.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:52:38  it was quite some time ago we were faced with a Division one athlete that was going to an Ivy League or top ten school for their being, you know, recruited. And, they were in such a state with intoxication that they almost went to jail for a year. And the referring psychiatrist came to me and said, the Da had spoken to him and said, I believe in you, this lead psychiatrist. if you would come up with a program, an intensive summer program for this young man, because it's his first defense and. I think we can I think we can avail jail time. And he won't lose his scholarship and his opportunity to play his sport at this university. And the psychiatrist turned to me and said, I know you. I'm you're from Montana. You know, cowboys, you know, can you come up with a good Montana program? And I thought to myself, I heard about the case and we went over what would be the most effective us, like this client is not going to respond well to a cowboy.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:53:50  This is not the right fit. So I started thinking, and I had some friends who were like, what about those Navy Seals that, you know, and it was like magic. And I went to them and I said, here's the situation. And they had done Outward Bound programs. They had done wilderness programs, but never one on one. And I said, what would be the perfect program for 6 to 8 weeks for this young man to understand adversity, overcoming shame, and just really becoming a man. And, he was 18. And, they said, you know, Natasha, with all the Outward Bound programs and wilderness programs we've done, we've always we've always had a hard time with an us against them mentality. What we'd love to do is take these young men one on one out and into the wilderness. And it's not a punishment. It's an opportunity they have to interview for this. Yeah. And so that's how do northwest the journey makes the man was created. And so I allowed these Navy Seals to curate a program for 6 to 8 weeks.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:55:01  There's phase one. Phase two. Phase one is was well, they had a lot of resources in the Army National Forest in Pennsylvania. And, they did team building projects. They did, fireside camp talks. They did midnight swims. What it is when you you push a young man to the brink of his limits. Is that he gets to know where he ends. An opportunity begins. And so, in a midnight swim, how far can you swim? In the pitch dark. You have a seal there with you before you collapse. And if you think you're going to collapse, can you go just a little bit more? And by all of a sudden, you're on the other side of the lake. And that feeling of self-esteem, confidence, relief.

Abdullah Bullard 00:55:46  Funds.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:55:47  Achievement. Like, I can overcome anything and we all need a coach. So what I loved about and still do work with these seals on specific cases, that's not for everybody is our young males typically 18 to 25 fall in this lane is there's no substance abuse.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:56:04  Usually with these seals, at least the ones that work for us. And and so there's not that label of a person in recovery. It's just you're a young man. and here's a the Knights of the world, if you will. I would say they're equivalent to these days. And they are they're so motivating to these young men. Yes. You know, instead of the, the shame piece of, oh, I'm an addict or I have a problem with the substance, we'll get there. But as we all know, there's this underlying issue beneath it.

Abdullah Bullard 00:56:42  Yeah, but it's, it's it's beautiful, you know, and it adds to, let's say the classical psychotherapy, the holistic side, an element of an experienced therapy. and, and it adds also the companionship. So it's additional elements for young young people to, to overcome their situations.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:57:05  and have respect, you know, and really respect the accomplishments of these young men are the seals that come to be of service.

Abdullah Bullard 00:57:13  How do you see the market? globally.

Abdullah Bullard 00:57:19  developing over the last decades and what. Yeah. First maybe around that. Do you, do you know how it's going at the moment.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:57:33  so what I'll back into this question and answer it in a way that I think the US, UK, European markets are a little slower, but they're coming around, whereas the rest of the world is just popping their head out of the ground and looking around. You know, and I think you and I both know the UAE in the last seven years has really woken up that there's a problem. And they've acknowledged that by allowing 12 step meetings into, into their regions, which I think was huge and groundbreaking, especially when they did it in Dubai to begin. And the recovery community there has really flourished. And then the conversations start happening behind closed doors, where generational trauma or ways of parenting, need to be looked at. You know, if we have a catastrophe happening, whether it be suicide or self-harm or eating disorders or pornography or whatever the maladaptive behavior is in the family system.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:58:42  Let's say the the matriarchs, really of the homes are the ones that are seeing it all, and they can't hide anymore and talk about shame. So what I tried to do is not go in and do treatment because they're it's not going to be effective anyways. If I just go in for a week or two and then that's, that's about the extent of what the opening if there is even one. Yeah. To stay and really create systems of change is what our company is known for. Our cases go out years and. Yes, I want to go in for the two weeks that they would be willing to be, you know, what have you. But I really want to educate and inform the region. So we do psycho education and we do like actually today is manana manana. And so we're presenting for the first time at Mineta. And it's the it's their third year, I think they're a newer organization, and it's the North African trauma informed conferencing. And their guest speaker this year is Gabor Mate.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:59:43  Okay. Which is a really big deal.

Abdullah Bullard 00:59:45  Nice.

Natasha Silver Bell 00:59:46  I mean, good job. You know, because education is the only one I don't mean school education. That's the advanced, you know, wishful thinking. We have to start with the with the therapists and the doctors to even understand the underlying issues. Because in medical school, what are you taught? Symptoms. Treat. Symptoms treat. We have to get away from that and you have to educate the clinicians who are the frontline, the doctors who are seeing all of these self-harm eating disorders coming in, and they have to be educated on the trauma of underneath it all and the family systems. And then you gently can start. So yes, things are picking up but slow because it's I'm not in to make a quick buck. You know, that's not why I started my business. But I do see the rest of the world like I have young people. It's my kids in particular. They're bringing me more families to talk to. Like, I have three dinners this weekend in London to talk to these 20.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:00:47  You know, my, my, my kids families about, you know, the loss of their child from suicide or, you know, their, their sister who is, you know, you know, isn't functioning anymore. And so how do we have these gentle conversations without shame and just try to educate them.

Abdullah Bullard 01:01:09  What you said is so important to educate the therapist, the doctors, the clinicians themselves. And what I see in the Middle East particularly, or also in many other parts of the world, is purely medication based. Therapy is so big, we see that with with a lot of our clients coming to, to, to our treatment facilities and, and we have to educate and treat and detox from those medication which has been prescribed by, by doctors. And, you know, just because someone is wearing a white robe, it doesn't mean they know everything. And treatment today we know it's much more than that. how do you see it in the in the US developing? Where are we right now?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:01:57  It's changing.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:01:58  There's over 15,000 treatment centers in the US. More maybe the number is even higher by now. Maybe 20. That was an old statistic of five years ago. and it's still the number one killer in our nation.

Multiple Speakers 01:02:12  Wow.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:02:13  Accidental overdose for people 50 and under is still the number one killer in the United States. And if we were to add suicide to that, you know, and you know, it's the chicken or the egg, right? The mental health issues. And now with AI, don't even get me started. That's what I, I was speaking at a conference yesterday about the harm the waiting for us with AI and mental health field. But let's try to keep on track.

Multiple Speakers 01:02:41  Here.

Abdullah Bullard 01:02:43  And get back to.

Multiple Speakers 01:02:43  It. Well, yeah.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:02:47  and so the American and UK consumers are much savvier. They know. And that's why my company has taken off, especially in the last seven years. Because in Behind Four Walls, yes. You should remain sober, get some great tools, get some great understanding.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:03:06  Try not to be over medicated to your point. And then off you go. You're supposed to say the American consumer says, okay, let's stabilize. But then what? So case management in home support is definitely the forefront. I mean, it has been and is is getting mainstream. Now more and more case management companies are are coming up or treatment centers are trying to do case management. I know like the Meadows you know they recently went out recently. They sold in 2015 I think. And they do case management now.

Abdullah Bullard 01:03:36  So as a part of an aftercare support.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:03:39  Yeah part of their aftercare support. But they they will reach out to me because we take the more complex. But if they're successful great. I'm an abundance mindset. Everybody should be in business if it's what they love to do. And if you're good, great. More people get better. so the market unfortunately is is is there? We will be if we're good at what we do, which we are, we're going to be busy the rest of our lives and the rest of the world will be catching up.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:04:05  They are looking to the Americans. Everywhere I go in the world, people say, what are you doing? You're ten years. Even in Asia, you're 20 years ahead of us. And they're they're just now popping their heads up over there. From my experience, I'm sure you have a different one.

Abdullah Bullard 01:04:20  Nice. Good to see there is some positive development and understanding that it's not just treatment. And then then everything is, as well. We know from statistics that, treatment rehab program, relapse is very high. The rates are very high. So long term therapy, like the service you are offering, is and becomes more and more crucial for, for for many people, I believe.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:04:48  With a great foundation in yours. Yes, it can be affected.

Abdullah Bullard 01:04:51  It's important.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:04:52  It is important. And you know, Taryn, as I mentioned before, she does all her intakes and we did another intake yesterday that we're not the right fit and we refer them out to stabilize somewhere else. They need more acute services than what we can provide, and then we'll stay in touch and we'll help case manage.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:05:10  But, you know, there's a lot of, discernment that goes into what's appropriate for the family and to get good advice. And I think that's a big issue in our industry. People are quick to say, yeah, I can do that. And they can't.

Abdullah Bullard 01:05:24  Is there anything else then? what we have discussed right now, you would suggest, or you see the market being developing towards to, what can also help in someone in recovery or getting treatment.

Multiple Speakers 01:05:44  I think the.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:05:45  Most important thing is if you're even if you don't know you have a problem, or a mother or sister or brother wants to help their loved one, is find a trusted friend that person respects. Like I'll use myself. For example, my friend Sarah, who called me. Looking back now.

Multiple Speakers 01:06:10  I.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:06:10  Wish I would have stayed on the phone with her. I wish I would have called her back and told her how awful things were. and she could have. She could have really aided in my next step, even though she wasn't a clinician, even though she wasn't a, you know, a professional in the field.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:06:27  I think having a trusted person you feel safe with. So if you're contemplating, you want to tell somebody that you have a problem or think of that one person who maybe isn't just going to, yes, you know, and hold space for you is probably the best way to take that next step.

Abdullah Bullard 01:06:44  It's nice to find that person. Yeah. And you can find it in groups and in meetings.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:06:52  You could, usually there's like an aunt or an uncle. There's always a friend or someone, you know that's sober. Maybe it's, I've become friends with my, dry cleaning lady. Persnickety cleaners in Livingston, Montana. And she's lovely. And we just have this common bond where we can talk to each other. And I would go to her if I needed something, you know.

Abdullah Bullard 01:07:16  Or you could find spirituality.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:07:18  Oh of course, of course. Or it finds you shall we say.

Abdullah Bullard 01:07:23  Yes. Can go both ways. probably. And spirituality, spiritual capital. is something close to you? And you, you like also to talk about.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:07:34  That, you.

Abdullah Bullard 01:07:35  Explain us the term spiritual capital. What does it mean to you and, and, what's your concept from it?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:07:44  Well, not to sound too much like a therapist, but I have spent a lot of time in there. So. Spiritual capital. What what my experience of it is really underneath, when I help people identify in their own, life is their belief system, core values. And if you haven't ever taken a minute to look at your core values, that's one way to go about it. Because the word God or spiritual capital or religion is can be very shaming and toxic as it was for me. So I'm very mindful of that. And don't just say, tell me your belief system. No, hold on, maybe I have no idea what that is and that's scary. Well, you know what you might value? Honesty. Showing up on time. Being frugal, you know, those are value systems or, maybe surface ones, because we have to begin somewhere with our clients.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:08:35  And so when we think about that, it really comes into a moral compass. That's what values back into. So what is morality to you. You know, and we kind of begin there.

Abdullah Bullard 01:08:47  It's a difficult question because is it something we grow up and we have seen within our family and surrounding what? What are the do's and don'ts? Or have we? Have we at the later stage paused and asked ourselves if this is what we want and this is what we stand for? I think that's that's what what what you're referring to kind of.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:09:10  That's right. We get the space we can feel, as Deb Dana talks about in the poly vagal theory, what we're always looking for in our relationship, whether we're sitting here or my, you know, a business or my children is accused of safety versus cuz of danger. And if I get enough cues of safety, I can pause enough to experience a relationship that feels safe, that I feel valued in. I felt seen. And then I can actually maybe take that feeling of safety with me and think about it and contemplate on it and actually have a sense, like you're saying, what do I value, whether it's in a relationship with another human being? I valued that conversation with us? You know, I valued this time.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:09:56  Why did I value it? I felt safe, and so those to me, are the core beginnings of how we help people identify what do they believe in? Because if they don't feel safe enough. Like when I recovered and I had my own home and I was doing acupuncture and going to meetings and doing my trauma therapy, I had never felt safe enough to even have my own thoughts come up. So I think, I think I start always so elementary in this conversation, because it's so important to give yourself the grace to know that maybe you haven't haven't had time to even think about what you want.

Abdullah Bullard 01:10:31  Yeah, sometimes you need to be pushed also to think about it, because if you just live your life and one day after another, you don't get into into rethinking. I had I had this wake up moment, let's say, spiritual wakeup moment when I was working for an organization just for a small period of time, and this was a time my father passed away. And then I started questioning, is the surrounding are the people? Is their morality really what I stand for and what I want to surround myself with? And this is then I left, and, this was actually the moment where I reflected, what is it I want to do? And, this is where I started the balance.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:11:16  I remember this story, and and I wouldn't say you were pushed. I'd say. I would say that life circumstances, right, created an awareness where you had to really slow down because grief does that to a person and loss. So that what is important to me, and that's just done, unfortunately, the cycle of life. So for me it was abuse and and and and suffering in that way where I when I had a sense where I could slow down enough, what did I want? I wanted safety, I wanted peace. You wanted a balanced life?

Abdullah Bullard 01:11:54  Yes, a balanced life and something meaningful. And. And avoid what? what makes me uncomfortable?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:12:04  Oh, that's a whole podcast right there.

Abdullah Bullard 01:12:07  So we did another one. I checked your WhatsApp before, and. And you have a quote on your picture?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:12:18  Yeah.

Abdullah Bullard 01:12:19  Do you know I forget?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:12:20  What? Something about a man's true wealth. Help me finish.

Abdullah Bullard 01:12:24  It. I will read it to you. A word of truth that hurts for a while is better than a lie that lasts a lifetime.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:12:31  Yeah, that's a good one.

Abdullah Bullard 01:12:34  What does it mean to you today?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:12:37  I was living a lie for so long. And that word of truth came from my friend Sarah. And that it hurts. It really hurts. But it's so important. It's so important to speak the truth and also know when to not speak. I don't want to hurt people with the truth too soon, you know? And I think that's something we do in our work as we dance around creating safety for our clients to hear their own conscience. And I think that's the difference, is that I love you know, C.S. Lewis really talks about that in his book Mere Christianity, where he even starts in the preface of that book, saying, this isn't to convert you. This is just to help you understand his journey from atheist into believer and understanding that, you know, what is it about the human being? he talks about when you're on a bus and you see an old lady come on and you see a young boy sitting, but he doesn't get up for the old lady, and that bothers you.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:13:45  Why does that bother you? Who taught you that? No one. Right. That's the human condition that we're born in to, of love and grace. And be kind and think of others. And I know there's all these, you know, analogies of if you're raised by wolves, did that mean you're going to go out and kill? You know what I mean? So on and so forth. But I think the reality of us being raised by wolves, for us really wanting to to harm, to harm something else unless we needed to nourish our own body, would be zero.

Abdullah Bullard 01:14:18  Natasha, you are a big inspiration to so many people. You have 200 coaches. They work with numerous of of of clients, patients. And What's the biggest transformation you have experienced during your, your life working with with clients?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:14:36  For myself, I suppose learning how to be a boss, it's not. I didn't go to business school. but balancing that with being a mom has been, the dance, that true dance.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:14:54  And my children are all in therapy very happily. We do a lot of mother daughter therapy, mother son therapy. But here's the gift, all led by them. Mom, can you join my therapy session? Mom, can I join your therapy session? Not because I want to yell at you or you abandon me. Because I want to understand. And I think what mother or parent doesn't want to do therapy with their child to under to help them understand? Yeah, I wasn't able to be there for you. I wasn't able to be there for you all the time, although I did work from home. But when you're on your phone or a zoom, I did have an office in New York City for a while before Covid, right? So there was a time where I was physically not home until seven and I had small children, and that's not ideal for a single parent. I don't even want to say mom for a single parent. Being home is important consistently and quality of time that co regulation is receiving.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:15:55  For me, when I walk in the door of my unconditional love and attention. and so because my children understood that I was working to provide for them, they, they want to understand that struggle for me. And I think I don't know if that answers your question, but that's certainly what came to mind is, is how much I danced over the last 13 years about showing up for them, learning how to take control of a company, which it didn't. Yes, I like, I know what I want, but I'm also a very kind person until I'm pushed. And so how do I get ahead of it so I don't have to be pushed, you know, so that it's been a little tricky of a dance.

Abdullah Bullard 01:16:43  Is being a mother not also one of the most difficult things in life?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:16:49  If I hear and I used to correct myself, I'm just a mom. Please take that word. Just out of there. Being a mother, I think there's a YouTube we were talking about at dinner last night, a YouTubes where people are interviewing for a job, right? And you don't get holidays off and you work 24 over seven and you lose sleep and, all the demands, basically motherhood.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:17:13  And at the end, they don't know it's motherhood yet that they're interviewing for. And they're like, okay, great. Sounds really demanding for life. what's the pay?

Abdullah Bullard 01:17:25  Oh it's big.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:17:26  Well it's financially obviously it's nothing but the, the reward and the return is that you are creating, someone's self-esteem, their ability to emotionally regulate their body to want to be a better person in the world. Yeah, so that's the reward. But, I think motherhood is is not seen as the valuable and most important job in the entire world above all other.

Abdullah Bullard 01:17:54  Can you manage your regulation? Are you always regulated when you're around your children?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:18:00  Yes, I am. Now, I could say that very confidently. No matter what they. I don't like everything they say to me. My daughter will often tell me how much I got it wrong, but she says it in a way. Now where, She needs to know that I hear her. Mom. You weren't there, and I can hold that.

Abdullah Bullard 01:18:20  Beautiful.

Abdullah Bullard 01:18:21  Thank you for sharing that. When you have a stressful life, you travel between countries, continents. what do you do to stay and balance yourself?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:18:35  Well, like you have candles lit here. We were just talking about. I always have incense going. I think regulating my nervous system, there's ways in which I do it. I try to limit my social engagement to people and places that I value. I don't just take every meeting. I don't need to anymore. I'll say that very confidently. But there was a time where I thought I did, and that was very dysregulated to take every meeting, to take every whatever opportunity was put in front of me. and I think discernment is so important. So I, I spent a lot of time in solitude in between my meetings. we drove up here, you know, from from London, and I put on some music and just was quiet the entire time for two hours. And I've had a busy week, so I needed that time to recenter and get, so I'm not exhausted so I can be my best self when I value time or an experience? And I don't sweat the small things.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:19:41  I don't sweat the small things.

Abdullah Bullard 01:19:43  So you learn to put certain boundaries in place and.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:19:46  And hold them.

Abdullah Bullard 01:19:48  Hold them and and care about yourself.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:19:52  Imagine that full circle. Yes I do.

Abdullah Bullard 01:19:56  And what is it you would tell everyone in the world? Or what would be the one thing you would suggest to them to do?

Natasha Silver Bell 01:20:05  Sorry to say, but, the balance is never perfect. You're always going to be straightening it out. It's a pendulum. But if you can know the extremes and have it be less extreme. it really is. You get the opportunity. Like, I can choose how I vacillate in between, when I'm exerting going out, being social or when I'm finding time for me and my solitude and things. I enjoy horseback riding in the mountains in Montana or what have you. I think just the awareness and discernment and that's really come in the last six years through my work with Deb, Dan and the poly vagal theory and understanding how emotional regulation and when I'm dysregulated, how do I bring myself back to a ventral state, which is a flow state of curiosity and play, and I try to live there as much as I can?

Abdullah Bullard 01:20:57  Yes.

Abdullah Bullard 01:20:57  Beautiful. But basically what you're saying is you you try to understand yourself. That's what you're telling everyone and understand where is your limit and and, work with that. Thank you very much for being here. It was a pleasure having this conversation with you. and, I admire you a lot. admire your work and and what your organization stands for. Thank you for everything you're doing.

Natasha Silver Bell 01:21:30  Likewise. Thank you.