From Struggle to Resilience: Emotional Skills for Parents and Adolescents

Cheryl Donaldson, MA, LMFT, LPC, Founder of Helping Families Flourish, LLC, joins Abdullah Boulad on Living a Life in Balance for an honest and practical conversation about emotional growth, family dynamics, and the inner world of children and adolescents.

Drawing from her own early struggles, academic challenges, and family experiences, Cheryl reflects on the moments that shaped her understanding of resilience and motivation. She shares how the coping mechanisms she developed as a young person now guide the way she supports parents, teens, and families in her clinical work.

🔗 Tune in for a wise, supportive, and deeply human exploration of what it means to grow, parent, and find balance in an ever-changing world.

About Cheryl:
Cheryl is a seasoned mental health clinician with over 20 years of experience supporting families, parents, and teenagers through modern challenges. 
She holds a Master’s in Clinical Psychology from Wheaton College and began her career serving at the American International School in Vienna. Today, her focus is on empowering families and adolescents with guidance that fosters confidence, resilience, and lasting well-being.

00:00:00 – Early Struggles and Motivation
00:03:27 – Academic Challenges and Family Dynamics
00:06:00 – Coping Mechanisms and Emotional Growth
00:10:37 – Parenting, Learning Styles, and Strengths
00:14:48 – Emotional Intelligence and Adolescent Support
00:18:45 – Cheryl’s Clinical Practice and Common Issues
00:21:15 – Helping Children Manage Anxiety and Friendship
00:24:57 – Social Struggles, Bullying, and Resilience
00:28:28 – Family Moves and Emotional Adaptation
00:33:40 – Career, Identity, and Purpose Abroad
00:42:08 – Building Connection and Navigating EXPAT Life
00:47:17 – Family Bonds, Friendship, and Finding Home
00:51:44 – Introduction to Internal Family Systems (IFS)
00:53:39 – Soul Work, Spirituality, and Self-Compassion
00:58:41 – Integrating Soul into Clinical Practice
01:04:44 – Leadership, IFS Principles, and Organizational Culture
01:10:54 – Communication, Curiosity, and Workplace Wellness
01:20:01 – Balance Practices and Final Wisdom

For further mental health information and support, visit The Balance RehabClinic website: https://balancerehabclinic.com/ 

Follow Abdullah Boulad:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdullahboulad/ 
https://www.instagram.com/abdullahboulad/ 

Follow Cheryl Donaldson:
https://stillpointpsych.com/about/cheryl-donaldson/

You can order Abdullah’s book, ‘Living A Life In Balance’, here: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/...

Follow The Balance RehabClinic:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/thebalancerehabclinic/

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Transcript

Cheryl Donaldson 00:00:00  I struggle with a lot of learning disabilities and so I was very unconfident growing up. All the feedback I got from teachers at the time was, you're really not doing this right? Oh, I love working with adolescents. I felt very vulnerable. As an adolescent, I felt like my self-esteem was very vulnerable at that time. Small things that you say can change a kid's life of how they see themselves. So when I think of all the different situations in my life where I've grown the most, it's always been through diversity.

Abdullah Boulad 00:00:31  Do you think these changes increased like resilience all the time?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:00:35  Yeah I do. The goal would be to help people really lead from the they're center from their soul.

Abdullah Boulad 00:00:43  You mentioned a couple times. So yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:00:45  If someone's resisting thinking about their soul, they're also sometimes resisting connecting to a part of themselves. Yes. Maybe make mistakes, maybe do silly things. Get out of your comfort zone. Put yourself out there and grow.

Abdullah Boulad 00:01:02  Welcome to the Living a Life and balanced podcast.

Abdullah Boulad 00:01:05  My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Cheryl Donaldson, psychotherapist, IFS expert, and founder of The Helping Families Flourish. In this episode, Cheryl shares her journey from struggling with learning disabilities to becoming a leader in the mental health field, where she combines psychology, spirituality and internal family systems to help people reconnect with their inner selves. We explore how family dynamics are shaped, how modern life has disconnected us from meaning, and why living abroad can be both a challenge and a powerful past. Personal growth. We also discuss company culture, communication, and why sustainable leadership isn't about power. It's about presence, connection and leading from the soul. I hope you will enjoy. Cheryl, what motivated you to do what you do today?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:02:09  that's a great question. I when I was growing up, I had so many people involved in my life. I had a great family, but I had so many mentors and just people that really invested in my life, and that really motivated me to get involved in the lives of others, I think, and really get involved, particularly helping younger girls.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:02:29  When I would, I volunteered for a lot of different things, and I was just mindful of how important that was for me. so then when I graduated from college, I moved overseas and started working for an organization called Young Life, and it works with high school kids and, you know, kind of does programs and different things. But I really realized through that that I needed more education if I really wanted to make a difference and I and I, I, I think for me it really connected with who I was and how I wanted to put this. it gave me purpose, a sense of purpose. And I was giving back, and I was making a difference in the lives of others. So that motivated me to go to graduate school. And so going to graduate school then, I really didn't think I would ever work in a clinical setting. I thought I would, I thought I'd probably work, like, at the organization, or maybe in a church or not, at a level of clinical work that was going to be really intense.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:03:27  But I got out of graduate school and I started working at inpatient clinic and just kind of jumped right in and, and loved it. And so that's it's really, I think, being invested in the lives of others and knowing how much that made a difference for me. and then kind of helping people come along that are maybe struggling in some way.

Abdullah Boulad 00:03:46  Who was important in your life at that time when you, when you were introduced to that field?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:03:52  I was on Young Life staff. So again, it's a Christian organization. It's a it's a not for profit that, you know, works. Works with kids. And there was a woman there that was on staff, and she had just gotten her master's in clinical psychology. And I was really fascinated by how much education she got and what a difference it made in her life to be able to make a difference in the in other people's lives. So she really influenced me, and I ended up going to her graduate school. And so that's, that's I ended up kind of following in her footsteps, but also through we did I did some theological studies and we had psychology psychological classes within theological classes, if that makes sense.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:04:35  Teaching coming over and doing graduate courses and so also taking those courses really impacted. I really felt like I loved it. It made sense to me intuitively, and I struggled with a lot of learning disabilities. And so I was very unconfident growing up academically, I just really thought it wasn't for me. You know, I just and I, I realized through studying that it wasn't that I wasn't bright. Although when I was growing up, I really felt like I wasn't bright. I thought, I, I really it intuitively made sense to me and it kind of turned that light bulb on for me academically. I kind of realized, okay, I think my brain actually does work. I think I don't, you know, but in school it didn't work. I mean, it really for me with learning disabilities to go from math to a foreign language to history to English for how my brain works, it wasn't going to work. And so I walked away feeling like, gosh, maybe I'm not that bright.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:05:32  And it was really through studying psychology, human behavior really made sense to me. And I realized it wasn't that I wasn't bright, it was more that my brain probably worked in a certain way. And so taking those courses and then becoming successful and doing really well. And that graduate work really encouraged me to go on and get more education.

Abdullah Boulad 00:05:55  Did it have a effect on your self-esteem at that at that time?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:06:00  Yeah. You know, I mean, I think so. So I grew up I grew up in Washington, D.C.. Very bright family. Very hard charging family. my brother and sister were both very bright. Got a lot of attention for their academic success and I didn't. I was kind of, you know, I really struggled and I really struggled reading. And it felt really embarrassing for me because I was in an area where academics were really important. Where you went to school was very important. What you were doing after school was really important. And, so I think I intuitively thought, okay, well, I'm not very bright.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:06:37  And that felt very I don't say it was embarrassing, but it felt like, wow, that's a real deficit. And and what does that mean for me? So I think I made up in other areas, like I became very social and I became very friendly and I, I found ways to cope. But I never really asked myself the question in, in my bride. Or is this is this educational? I mean, I was too young really to understand what that was, but certainly those were the questions that I reflect back on my self-esteem around accomplishment, competency, being able to do something was really impacted because all the feedback I got from teachers at the time was, you're really not doing this right. And so right and so constantly, I thought, I really second guessed myself in a lot of different areas, and I have a lot of competencies and a lot of areas, but it was hard, and that's what I think, too. I love working with I love working with adolescents. I mean, I've always loved working with adolescents because they're so I think I felt very vulnerable as an adolescent.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:07:38  I felt like my self-esteem was very vulnerable at that time. but on the surface, I think everybody would have thought, oh, Cheryl, she's really happy, she's really social. And I was a cheerleader and I was kind of, you know, I was always having fun. But it was trying really to make up for the fact that I was really struggling like, oh, gosh, I don't I don't really have an academic path for me. And I really and no one could really pinpoint what that was. but I just knew that I did not like studying. I did not like because all the feedback I got was negative. And it was it was so for my self-esteem. That was tough. Yes.

Abdullah Boulad 00:08:15  Yeah, definitely not the right way of how how the school system should be to engage and motivate children. Yeah. To be diverse.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:08:24  Yeah. Right.

Abdullah Boulad 00:08:25  Where your parents at that time available for you helping through through.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:08:30  Yeah. You know my my parents, my parents got me a lot of tutoring and they got me a lot of help and a lot of, a lot of different ways.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:08:40  but I don't I think that they were getting me help. Tutoring to help me do better in school. And the reality of it was, is that I was never going to be able to do well in that environment. So it almost and this was not their intent, but it was almost made me feel less than, even more if I were to reflect back. Not at the time, but I felt like my brother and sister were doing really well. They were getting into really good colleges and, you know, doing really, really well. I was having to have extra work to barely make it in school, and so it almost reinforced, not by intent that you're just not able to make it within the system. And, and I couldn't make it within that system. That system wasn't going to work for me. It was going to be something very different.

Abdullah Boulad 00:09:29  Make sense?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:09:30  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:09:31  Or how should they have done things differently? Or how what environment would have been better for you?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:09:38  Yeah. well, okay.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:09:41  So it's hard because at that time there weren't a ton of options for, you know, there weren't a lot of programs outside of the box that might have been able to help me. I think definitely if I had had a smaller class size, that really would have helped me or or someone that said, here's the reality of the situation. You're never gonna be a mathematician. You're not going to be, you know, you're probably not gonna be a doctor. That's not really going to be those detail oriented is not really where you're going to thrive, but in these other areas, you're going to be great. And I see this and I see that and I remember I remember one I can't remember what they called it. It was like resource learning or something where they would pull me out of the class, which was terrible. I hated it, it was embarrassing. And so I go to these small groups that they were thinking, would this to be really helpful? And I remember one teacher said to me, and it reminds me that small things that you say can change a kid's life of how they see themselves.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:10:37  But I remember she said to me, what I always find with kids like you is that you're going to find one thing that you're really good at and you're going to take off, and that's who you are. And I remember even saying that out loud. I remember thinking, she, she. That's how I feel intuitively. I feel like there's something in me that has something to offer. Yes. I don't know what it is, but she was articulating to me, you're not going to be the kind of student that's going to, you know, be able to jump into any situation and do all this, but you have something and you're going to be able to figure that out, and that's going to come in time and you're going to you're going to really thrive. And so I would say for my husband and I, our kids were all different learners. And they all really love academics, but they did academics differently. And to this day they do academics differently and they're just different students. And so we really I think the one thing that I took away from that was, how can I really see their learning style and who they are and their strengths and really come alongside of them and really say, you know what? You're never going to be great at this, but you're so great at this, but you're able to learn it if you do this and that.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:11:52  But that might not be that might not be your strength. You might be able to do do it in a different way, and it doesn't make it any more or less.

Abdullah Boulad 00:12:00  Is it? Is it about finding a strengths or about finding the passion or the what? What they what they enjoy doing? Because maybe if someone can find joy in math, yeah, he can, he can, he can eagerly. Yeah. Dive into it more and more and more. Yeah. so yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:12:20  Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I think for me, I just think of our three different boys. So our oldest is in law school right now, and I would say from the time that he was in school, I thought he would probably go to law school. He loved to read. Very analytical, you know. Just. That was really. He loved it. You know, he really loved doing that. Our middle son, did well in any class. You put him in any class, and you did well, like it didn't matter.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:12:49  You know, you put him in a language, and he's going for that. Our third son was not like me in the in terms of a learning disability, but he's in marketing and he's way more creative, way more very much outside of the box sometimes. So outside of the box that teachers are asking him a question that they just need an answer for. And he's got like five different ways that he could do it differently. You know what I mean? And so for him, he's in marketing now and loves it. And and but if I wasn't aware of how that impacted me when teachers were saying, no, that's not right to answer that, coming alongside of him and saying, look, all they want is the answer. Just give him the answer. They don't care. All these different other ways we've got to learn how to do school so that that won't close doors. So you can keep moving. But you've got this really creative part of you that is unbelievable. It might not be perfect for this setting, but man, you know, that's really and he's loved that and really taken that and loves that creative part.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:13:52  But I often think had that scared us my husband and I to say oh gosh. You know maybe he's he's not able to get the right answer or do it the right way. I think that creative side might not have been as encouraged or loved or, you know, so.

Abdullah Boulad 00:14:08  But you have been doing is is ideally supporting your child as, as as they grow up. Yeah. but that's not the standard obviously in today's school system. So it's about achievement and, and grades and and just to accept that every, every person is individually having their own process. It can can be early. It can be later. Yeah. When when you look back and compare yourself with your, with your siblings. Yeah. do you think you have developed more social social skills? or how do you compare?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:14:48  Yeah, yeah. It's funny. So my brother, is, he's an attorney. By by he's an attorney. Tax. He runs finance. Different things. But he reached out to me one time and said, hey, I want your opinion on this.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:15:04  Tell me how you see this. Because I always love your perspective because it's so different than mine. So have they not developed? No. They've all developed emotional intelligence. But I think even now he would say, I really want to see how you're seeing it, because I think you see it maybe a little bit differently. And I love that perspective. And so, I would say I had to develop a lot of emotional intelligence when I was younger because half the time I really couldn't. I really struggled even following directions in school, so I had to find coping skills. A lot of it was, how do I figure out how I get what I need from this person, whether it be a teacher, like an aide or anybody? I have to figure out how that how that is. Whereas, you know, someone gives you instructions, you immediately know what it is. You don't need to develop those skills. And I was always kind of trying to figure out where do I fit in, how do I how do I manage how this how do I manage the fact that I don't know at all what this person is asking me to do, but how do I ask and not feel silly that I'm asking that I don't understand? And so I had to develop a lot of those skills just a young age, which definitely helps me now.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:16:16  and it helps me to see kids that are really struggling that come to me look for ways that they're really thriving, even though they don't really think they're thriving. and helping parents really understand their kids better when they're just measuring their success by their grade in school or you know, what they're doing or, you know, whatever that is really being able to often focus with parents, especially before they get into high school, when those grades are going to matter for for college or university or whatever. I'll say, look, the only thing that you want to teach your kid is how to be a student. Right now, the grades really don't matter. It's not it's not going to. We just want to teach them how to be a student, how to know that if I don't study, I won't do well on a test that will impact me. Teaching those skills of hard work and understanding what that is is way better than you constantly judging. Oh gosh, you know, they have this grade or that grade and they're doing well.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:17:17  And but teaching those life skills before it really matters when they get into those grades where it really matters and doors close clothes if they don't do well or not. I really focus there with with parents also to take the pressure off to say you're in this for the long haul. This is not your grade in seventh grade math. This is really if I didn't study enough, I'm not going to get a good enough grade. And maybe doors would be closed for me. And I don't want that to happen. And, you know, so, so helping parents, I think to help their kids come alongside them and find out what's going on.

Abdullah Boulad 00:17:54  Your emotional intelligence you have developed is, has become your superpower. Yeah. Way. yeah. Giving you the direction what you are doing today?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:18:03  Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, I think I really resonate with kids that are struggling even and even the kids that come in that are really angry or really bitter with their parents or just like, I don't care or whatever, it's very easy for me to see through a lot of that to say, okay, what is what is going on underneath the surface, because you're not trying in school and you're acting like you don't care.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:18:28  And I don't really think that's the case. And so I think that my own experience has been able to help me see in others when they're experiencing that and what that looks like. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:18:40  How do you work today with, with children and families? Yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:18:45  You know, I work with such a range of of people. I work in a variety of different ways. I have a clinical practice in Charleston, South Carolina. I have more of a consulting practice abroad, so I do work internationally, and I consult and I, I help out. But in terms of in Charleston, my clinical practice, I, I work with parents, I work with kids or with adolescents, I work with adults. So I, I work really in a range of folks, with small kids, I generally bring the parents in. I'll say, hey, bring your child in. I want to meet your child. But I generally work with the parents. And I'll say, if I can help you interact with your kid, you're going to be the one that's going to be putting them to bed, sitting at dinner with them.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:19:31  You're going to be the one in the car with them. Your kid's going to come to me, and they're not going to be able to have a deep conversation with me in 50 minutes and see change if they're seven years old, you know what I mean? They're just not they're not going to be able to do it. But I can empower you to then help your kid, and that always makes a difference for them. And so I generally always have them bring the kid. But I work with the parents a lot and then the kids a little bit. And with the adolescents too, I bring the parents and I work with the parents and and the adolescents always say, yeah, bring my bring my parents in. I want you to talk to them. And they see me as an asset to help them. And so that's I, I see things very systemically. And so I try to really impact the system.

Abdullah Boulad 00:20:15  What kind of problems or issues would with the children or the family system has.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:20:20  The children that I generally see are pretty anxious generally.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:20:24  You know, something's either happened and they're anxious or or they're just anxious generally with kids, that's that's the number one. And then from there trying to understand where is this coming from? What's happening? what are you doing in your life? How do we how do we make a difference here? And some of it is teaching the parents how to manage their kids when they're anxious, because some parents will say, well, my kids are anxious, so I don't want to make them do that or I don't want to have them whatever. And and it's really about helping them work through the anxiety, because anxiety is only going to get bigger if they struggle in that way. And so how do we give kids skills to work through it and have hope in the midst of their.

Abdullah Boulad 00:21:09  What would you tell parents how to deal with, let's say, children with anxiety as an example?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:21:15  so I'll give you Great. This is a little example. So I had a child that came in and he had anxiety every time his parents left.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:21:23  So if they were late to pick them up for soccer practice, total meltdown. They were late for school. Really, really struggled. If they had to wait in the in the school line, their parents weren't first. really, really had a hard time. And so there's a lot of reasons for what was going on in this child's life. I think he was just trying to figure out, how do I soothe myself, what does that look like? But instead of teaching him how to soothe himself and come up with a plan, the parent was just running around so that they were the first in line at the at the car thing which communicated to the child, your anxiety is is appropriate, you know what I mean? Like, oh, okay. So now I'm gonna I'm going to be the first one there to help soothe you. So they're the ones actually soothing the child as opposed to teaching the child has to themselves. And so for me, we try to reverse that and talk through why the parent feels like they need to solve all of that for their kids and then also for the kid, be like, you know, that is a little bit nerve wracking.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:22:27  What are three things that we can do when we feel nervous like that? Can we talk to a trusted adult? Can we turn to our friend next to us? Can we, you know, take some deep breaths. What is what? You know, this is not this is not an actual fear because there's no you're not in danger. What's happening here? So how can we manage that and do that better. And and you're capable of doing that. And so those things generally resolve themselves as the parents try to overly compensate. It actually makes the anxiety worse.

Abdullah Boulad 00:22:57  Okay.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:22:57  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:22:58  So it should also empower the children.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:23:00  And how are they.

Abdullah Boulad 00:23:01  Making a decision for themselves.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:23:02  Right.

Abdullah Boulad 00:23:03  Right. Yeah. This is kind of I if I drive my, my son to to play football. Yeah, yeah. Soccer. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. In America, yeah. He likes us to be present. Yeah, he likes us to be there. Yeah. He prefers not to be. Just, left.

Abdullah Boulad 00:23:23  Left by himself. Yeah. But what I maybe intuitively try to do is to offer it to him. Yeah. Yeah. Is it okay? Yeah. And he can make the decision if it's fine to jump it out or if someone wants. And this was, was helpful over a period of time to, to get to a place where he got more comfortable.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:23:45  Yeah. Yeah. And just talking with him through it, like you have choices in this, you know. And what I would always tell the kids, the kids that struggle in that way. What I always say is like, look, you're capable. You're capable of managing this. Let's come up with ways at work, you know. Then when they feel like, oh, yeah, I am capable, I can I can figure that out. And then we would come up with ways that help them. And sometimes they might be anxious and that's okay too, you know? And that's that's okay for them. And we can talk that through.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:24:15  And so you instead of trying to protect the child more, really trying to lean into what's happening inside of them and give them skills, I think is the key for, for parents. And really at the end of the day, that goes when they're little, that goes when they're in high school, that goes when they're in college, when kids go off to university and they really struggle, and parents being able to say, you know, you're capable, you're gonna be able to figure this out. I don't know what that's going to look like, but I think you're the best one to figure it out. I'm right here, and we'll do it together and you're safe. And, giving kids that message is really key. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:24:54  So anxiety is one of the big topics. Yeah. What else?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:24:57  A lot of the people that I deal with are anxious. There is some depression. There's also there's also kids that struggle socially getting along with other kids that that is something that really with, You know, with social media and some parents get very parents will get and kids too will get very caught up in those social, struggles.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:25:24  I would say they're so heightened now because they don't ever seem to get a break from it. And so helping parents with those social and really, I say the same thing about academics as they do about friends often how parents look. Our goal for kids is to teach kids how to be good friends, because if they know how to be a good friend, they're going to have friends, and this is going to be really up and down. But if they learn how to be a good friend, they're going to have friends. And so let's talk through what that is. And these days, for whatever reason, because things are mobile and just with the internet and things kind of kids go in and out of friend groups. So how can we kind of discuss that? How can we talk about building friendships? And that's another thing that really yeah, that really resonates, that sense of how do I fit in? Where do I belong? Am I okay with myself? Am I different? And you know, so so really navigating that with kids is really key.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:26:24  And with parents too, they get very anxious about their kids not really fitting in. And yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to watch when your kids are struggling. I mean, it's it's really, really hard to watch.

Abdullah Boulad 00:26:35  Yeah. It can happen so quickly. yes. A friend changes, a new person comes into class. I, I've seen that also. And the whole dynamic changes and. Yeah. And it's a fine line also where bullying comes into play. How have you seen. Have you seen that type of cases, too?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:26:57  Yeah. You know, kids would come in and talk a lot about bullying and and generally what I try to do with bullying is help kids fight. You know, I always say, hey, you really need to think about, do I like this person or do I not like this person? So if I don't like this person, I need to be protective of myself around that person. So what does that look like in your specific situation? How do you find how do you find people that are safe? And this person obviously is not safe.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:27:26  And so you need to be careful. Just like in any situation where there's danger, you need to find ways. And we can do that together. And every plan looks a little bit different. But how can we come together and come up with a plan that you know how to take care of yourself and feel safe in your environment? And, and that's different for each kid because each kid has a different skill set of what that and what that looks like. And a lot of that is leading from the center, leading from your. And we'll talk a lot about what does it mean to understand who I am and my core and value. Who I am in my corps. Who I am, my center. How can I get in touch with that? And I do a lot of work with IFS and a lot of internal family systems where it talks about those different parts inside of us, and so with with kids, with adults. How do we how do we know who we are, on the inside and, and stay grounded there I think is really a key, a key.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:28:28  And we can use all of these tougher situations like bullying or whatever's happening to help ground them more. Yes. and who they are. And that's a really important. It's funny art. My husband and I didn't intend this, but we moved a lot corporately, just with different jobs. And we moved overseas and we moved back to the Midwest and then another city and then moved to Charleston. So we moved a couple of different times. So it it was really clear to me that our boys are going to need a lot of skills to figure out how to get along, because they're coming in. They're the new kids. Some of these kids, when they came into schools, they've been friends since kindergarten, and our kids are new coming in. And I was losing all of my friends, too, because we're moving from Chicago to Kansas City to we lived in the Netherlands for a while, so learn. So one thing I would do with our kids is that I would say, look, right now you're new, so you don't have a lot of friends.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:29:31  It doesn't mean that you can't make friends, but you don't have friends right now and I don't have friends. And so we're going to walk through this together like we're going to figure it out. And to be honest, it's kind of a lonely deal. And that's okay because you're going to be able to make friends. But yeah, it's going to be awkward when you first walk in and when you first walked in to. Our oldest son started his freshman year, the first day of school, I think we had moved two days earlier to Kansas City, and he walked in the first day. And so we were like, this is gonna be weird. Like, this is gonna be uncomfortable. And, you know, and he was it was weird. It was a weird. It's a weird deal to be new in school and to be, you know, 14 and ninth grade. And he was really tall. And so he kind of stood out in that way. And, but to be able to say that's okay.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:30:19  Yeah. Like, just because today doesn't feel great, you're going to be okay. You're loved. You have a family that loves you, your brothers that love you, you've extended family loves you. Today might not be great, but we're going to be able to come up with skills to help you move forward with that.

Abdullah Boulad 00:30:35  So to be yeah, it's important as parents to to acknowledge and and just to be there. Yeah. For for the child. Yeah. But it also depends on what age they are. That's right. But when you move and a new environment because at some there is a tipping point where they then. Yeah withdraw and yeah what's, what's the right age. Until what age? Yeah. Is it easier to move and integrate?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:31:00  Yeah. You know, I mean, so we moved in every age, so. So I can tell you the different ones. And and they were they all had their challenges. So they were all when we moved the first time we moved from Chicago to the Netherlands.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:31:12  And our boys were five, three and one. So my cousin and I both figured, okay, if we're together as a family, that's really what they know. Even though we were moving to a completely different country. And, you know, we when we moved back, our oldest was ten, eight and six, and they really understood that they were different, that they had had a different experience. And they were coming home and they would go to school and they were doing math with American money, and they were only used to euros and they couldn't figure out. You know, there were just things that were different the way that they so they really understood that. And kind of walking through that with them was really interesting. And then the the next time we moved. I think our oldest son was starting junior high, and that was. That's always an awkward and awkward time. And then the next time we moved, he was starting high school, so he was starting high school. Our middle son was starting junior high.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:32:09  And so we just all kind of, as a family came up with a plan. We were going to put him in as many sports as they could do or whatever the activity would be. It didn't matter. But our boys play a lot of sports, so we were like, let's just go. We'll put you in every team or whatever. I would sit on the sidelines and talk to anybody that would talk to me, you know. So I kind of modeled like, this is what you do and you try to connect. And so I can't say we didn't really have a choice because it was job changes. And we just, you know, you go with the you go with it. So I don't know if we would have gone back and said, oh, this is a this is a great idea. Let's, let's add this stress to our, you know, childhood. But now our, our three boys can kind of go into any situation and figure out how to make that work. And so, although awkward and hard at times, really a wonderful, I think it's given them an unbelievable skill that, that was great.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:33:02  And so I often say that to parents, look, it is uncomfortable that, you know, I, I was born about, you know, ten minutes from the house that I grew up in. And I think when they did my first baby shower for my oldest son, it was in that house, you know, so I just, I didn't we never moved. And Craig's parents still live in the same house that they bought when he was six. And so that wasn't how we grew up. So it was really different. And but it's given us something to give to them that they, they would all go back and say, no, I really appreciate that. Yes. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:33:35  Do you think these changes, increased like resilience over time?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:33:40  Yeah I do, I think I think it increases resilience if you're intentional about it, if you if you don't take it seriously or you don't, you don't help navigate kids or you're not attuned to it. Or maybe, you know, I since we are in the corporate world.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:33:59  Other people around us were moving as well. And I and I saw a lot of moms that, you know, resented moving. It's a lot of stress to move. So their kids sensed that they were unhappy. Maybe the parents were unhappy. So I think you have to take whatever situation has been given to you and figure out how to use that to how to help your kids grow.

Abdullah Boulad 00:34:18  Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. So also from struggles over over years and time that that something positive can get out of it. Yeah. Yeah. In any way. Yeah. I see when we talk about traveling and I've been also traveling or moving countries maybe twice in my year, significant times, once as a child moving from Lebanon to Switzerland. And then about 6 or 7 years ago we moved from Switzerland to Spain. So also language changes, once as a child, one as once as an adult. With with my own children and the feeling of being in this expert world. Initially we were our children were at the German school, so there were no language changes in that sense.

Abdullah Boulad 00:35:03  But then the last couple of years they have been in a in a more Spanish British system and, and they were involved with other languages. Yeah. There were also struggles for us as parents to adapt to this situation. And when you mentioned you and your husband were traveling and moving countries and cities for business. Were you both working or was only one person working? Because that's something I see very often. Also, one person works and the other is like bored or depressed even in their environment.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:35:45  Yeah. Well, so my husband is an attorney. And so he was working with companies, international companies, and that's what kind of moved us around. So when we moved abroad to the Netherlands, I couldn't work. So I was working at a private practice. During that time we moved abroad. I couldn't work. So then that that didn't work. But when we came back to Illinois, our boys were young and so I wanted to work. I wanted to continue to do that, but it wasn't really an area that I could start a private practice.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:36:15  It just wouldn't be able. It was kind of a rural area and it wouldn't be able to fill my private practice. So I started thinking, okay, what can I do? What what what, what do I want to be involved in? So I started getting involved in school, so I started doing some social work. I did consulting with schools. I would do programs, I would do a lot of speaking. And I just kind of figured out, okay, what can I do now? This isn't working. Yeah. Just how can I how can I use my skills in different ways? It doesn't have to be just one, one thing. So that's what I did in. We lived in an area called Decatur, Illinois, and then we went to Kansas City, and I used all the speaking that I was doing in Decatur, in Kansas City to begin to build my practice. So I started speaking at schools and started getting involved in school boards and, and different advocacy programs. And so then I started building a private practice.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:37:08  So I, I just went wherever whatever what was the need? I tried to figure out what the need was, and then I just tried to do the best I could to figure, knowing that because of the job that my husband had, I had to be creative because he was traveling a lot. And and so I was at home some of the time, but also working and just trying to adapt and be creative to be able to do what I wanted to do. So yeah, but you have skills, you have to develop skills and kind of adapt to whatever is being given to you, you know?

Abdullah Boulad 00:37:43  Yes. And and, be brave enough to to approach what you, what you want to do. Yeah. As well. Yeah. And be open for it. Yeah. And that certainly today is different than. I don't know when this was, but today you could have opened your practice and offered online sessions.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:38:03  Right. I know, I know.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:06  That's the that's easier today than than it was in the past.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:38:10  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's more options now. But back then, yeah, I couldn't I couldn't have done it back then.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:16  How was it when you were in in the Netherlands? Yeah. With the language barrier language. I know in the Netherlands they.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:38:23  Say they speak.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:24  In English.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:38:25  Yeah, they.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:25  Did quite well. But.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:38:26  Yes.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:27  Yeah, but in Spain they don't.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:38:28  That's right, that's right. Yeah. No, we. So we chose a town to live in where the American school was. So it's a little town called Wassenaar and the American school was there. So our kids, if they really wanted to. Could have ridden their bikes to school. I mean, it is far. And we generally drove them but it it wasn't that far away. So it was a really wonderful setting for them. But our two younger boys, we just put in Dutch school because they were actually learning English, kind of at the same time they were taking in Dutch words. So we just wanted to have them have that experience.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:39:04  And, and so they went to a Dutch preschool. And then eventually, when we knew we were moving back to the States, we put our middle son in, back in the American school just because we thought it would be too hard of a transition. But our middle son spent the longest time in Dutch school, and he's really able to speak. He speaks Spanish fluently, he speaks Italian fluently and has a real knack for languages. And I think it's because we just kind of said, you know, go for it. We think you're capable, like go and and he really has that has that ability to kind of move around around languages.

Abdullah Boulad 00:39:43  So how was it for you connect with languages and and also other people. Yeah. Because it's difficulty not just to stay in this expat bubble. Right.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:39:53  That's right. I would say. So I speak a little bit of French, like a little bit of French. I didn't think because the Dutch, their English was so good. it, it almost wasn't worth it for me too, because I'd try to use Dutch and they'd be like, what are you doing? Like, I don't even.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:40:10  You know what I mean? So I, I worked on my French because we traveled. We were close to France, and I worked on my French a little bit because I just wanted to be able to learn languages. But the expat, because the American school was there, the expat community was pretty large. So it was a very international community, but it was all English speaking, which which was really nice. because also it was a time in my life where I had a one year old, a three year old, and a five year old. And I just thought. I don't know if I'm going to be able to learn a language and really be able to get involved in the culture here. I mean, I'm just barely, you know, washing my hair in the morning. I'm barely, you know, making things happen. So I, I just decided that I'm not going to try and learn Dutch on. And I really found my footing within the American community. So. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:40:57  And you knew you you will be only there for.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:41:00  For for a period of time.

Abdullah Boulad 00:41:02  Period of.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:41:02  Time. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. So it wasn't and the American school really made an effort to be involved with the Dutch community. So the American school would put on Halloween for the Dutch, for the, for the town. So all the Dutch folks were very involved in the image. So again, it was it was English speaking, but you really felt like you were involved in the community, which was really fun.

Abdullah Boulad 00:41:24  English is universal. That's your. Yeah, maybe.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:41:26  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a unique expat experience because all the Americans really lived in this small village. And so it was a it was a unique it was a very international group, but it was a very unique group.

Abdullah Boulad 00:41:41  If you think about people who cannot connect to the language or connect locally, or don't have work locally. Yeah. And something to do purpose when children are at school, what what do you suggest to them to socially connect network and find find some purpose during this time, even if it's just limited?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:42:08  Well, with expats in particular, yes.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:42:12  when I moved, I always kind of because we moved a lot. I kind of have a system that I do. So I want to find friends in my community, whether that be restaurants that I go to every day. And I see someone to get coffee and I do whatever I, I try to make connections there because that for me feels good. I like that, so I try to make connections to my neighborhood and to my community. That's the first level. and then I really. If your kids are in school really trying to make connections in school and volunteer as much as you can to be involved in that way, because you're going to get friends that way. for my husband, we would always have people over from work, and it was always a really international group. And it was important for us, for our kids to meet those people. And it was really important for us to have those connections and community within work. So. So I often organize those those times I got involved with the American Women's Club, which was great.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:43:06  I got involved with, I joined a workout area, I did yoga, I did, you know, I just I got involved, especially the first year I got involved in as many things as I could get involved in, because I knew at some point I could develop a group. And I think my group, my, my group that ended up being my larger group came from Kimora, what's called like mother to mother or like, I don't know, mother or something, you know, but it was a mother's group, and we got together once a week and there was programming and there was traveling and, you know, different things. And then I really found my, my group there and then and then that was really meaningful. And the most meaningful thing I think about being an expat is that you, you're all there without family, so you need each other desperately. So in this group of friends, two of them had, three of them had babies, and we were there. So we were the family.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:44:02  We were the ones that showed up at the hospital. We were the one that brought meals. We were the ones that took care of their kids, and we did everything that family would do. We'd celebrate holidays together. So there's something about putting yourself out there as an expat and meeting people. But when you do, you meet people that have decided to take that adventure. Like you say, yes, I'm going to go and do this, do this thing. but you also have a group that you get to rely on which is really meaningful.

Abdullah Boulad 00:44:33  That's beautiful because you're an outgoing person. Yeah. That's true. I mean.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:44:37  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:44:38  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It comes naturally to you.

Multiple Speakers 00:44:40  Yeah yeah yeah. But yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:44:41  But maybe not to everyone. That's right. And another element is also having children makes it also easier. That's true. Connect through school and the school system and other parents. Yeah. Whereas if you're as an adult traveling and being an expat, it's more difficult. You have your work maybe, but if you are just the part, just the partner of that person who is working and then it becomes more challenging, it does.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:45:08  And I think I always say to expats when I'm working with expats, it's going to push you to your limit of putting yourself out there because, you know, let's say hypothetically, you grew up in Chicago, Illinois, and you lived ten minutes from your parents, and then all of a sudden your husband has this opportunity to move abroad and you go abroad. You've never had to put yourself out there. Your parents are ten minutes away. You've got holidays with them. You know, you didn't have to go out and call people and arrange for dinners. They were all kind of, maybe you went to high school there or something. So you had this opportunity in your life to put yourself out there and to grow, and that's going to help you grow more as an individual. It's going to be really meaningful. It's going to really stretch you and you can do it or not do it. If you don't do it, you might be lonely, but you also miss this great opportunity to maybe make mistakes, maybe do silly things.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:46:03  Maybe you know what I mean. Maybe say the wrong thing. And but in coming to terms with that and who you are and having compassion on that part of yourself, even if you're introverted, it's an opportunity. you might not do it as much, but that discomfort hopefully will motivate you to to get out of your comfort zone, and that's always a good thing. Like that's. But but one of the reasons why I started working with expats was because I, I just felt like they were underserved community, and they didn't have a lot of resources to pull from to say, because a lot of people say, well, yeah, I'll move abroad and they get there and they're like, oh, it's really lonely. I'm really lonely. The food's different. It was fun for a month when I got to go travel a little bit, and now it's, you know, in the Netherlands it would get dark at like four. You know what I mean? It was real. It was different, you know, it rained a lot, you know, and and so you had to figure out ways to adapt.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:47:04  But as doing that and doing that and stretching yourself, that's a wonderful that's wonderful quality. It's it's wonderful experience. And. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:47:14  And if it doesn't work out you move to the next city.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:47:17  And if it doesn't work out your husband or your wife or whatever, you know. Yeah. No, I mean, also it's this great opportunity to rely on your the one thing that we would say to our kids, or one thing we noticed as a family, is that when we moved, we didn't have a lot of friends. You know, you get there and you just don't have a lot of friends, you know? So you're with your family and and you really create those bonds and you take care of each other. And, you know, our boys are all close, and they my husband and I have a close relationship, and we rely on each other because when you do move, that's the constant. And so it's important to have support there. If it's not going well, if you're struggling in your marriage and you're moving abroad, sometimes that happens, to really reach out to get help because that's going to be your support system.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:48:03  Those are the people that you're going to rely on. And, you know, you might need to learn some new skills and how to communicate and how to all of it.

Abdullah Boulad 00:48:12  Keep keep an open mindset. Yeah. For these things. Yeah. Community is important. Yeah. You have with all the travels you have made friends in different places. How do you stay in contact with it?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:48:25  That's a great question. Yeah, because I grew up so I grew up in Washington, D.C. my husband grew up in LA. So our family, all of our family is there. So my brother and sister are there, and my parents and Craig's mom and sister are there, and all of their kids are there. So they're there. We've moved around, you know, all over. And and then we have these friends from a lot of different, different places. And so some you realize that there are communities that you're really close with and then some not. It's like a season that you're close with them and you remain close with them, but not in the same way, you know? And so you try to be connected via social media and texting and but also there has to be a letting go that the relationship is changing and, and really valuing what that relationship was, and that there are going to be new people that you're going to be that are going to add layering onto those relationships.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:49:25  And then sometimes all of a sudden those people come back into your life, which is really beautiful. And but it's it's not putting the pressure on yourself to always be in contact with everyone all the time, but allowing that to flow and knowing that community where you're living is really important. It's really important to feel grounded there. And then also, be in touch with them and kind of hold loosely of sorts.

Abdullah Boulad 00:49:54  It's a sort of a new system. I mean, in the past, as you mentioned, yes, many would would grew up in a local neighborhood even, and stay all their life in this house. But this is what the tribe theory or tribes and, and local communities has been about to feel safe, to feel connected. And we know also how important this is growing up and age And that would be then the next level. You know, if if someone would travel all the time. And where is home? Where is where are you connected the most and where will you want to to grow old?

Cheryl Donaldson 00:50:31  Yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:50:31  Our last move has been to Charleston, South Carolina. I went to university there, said the East Coast of America is more my home. And when we moved there, not that I didn't grow up in Charleston, but it was the. And my husband and I met living abroad. He was living in Budapest, Hungary. I was living in Vienna, Austria. So we were living abroad. So there was no place in the US that was home for the two of us. and then when we moved around, we had, you know, different Chicago wasn't home and we made it home. Kansas City wasn't home. We made it home. Decatur wasn't home. We made it home. The Netherlands, same thing. when we moved to Charleston and we had these old friendships that were there, it felt like home. And there was something really beautiful feeling that this was familiar and that this felt like home for the two of us. and how important that was. And, for our boys really even talking about that feeling like this is home.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:51:29  And the two of us said, okay, we're. Yeah, I'm not packing up again, like, this is it? I'm we're here, you know, and we're gonna we're gonna make that happen here. Because that grounding space was really important and those those relationships and. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:51:44  Can we go back to to the topic, internal family system you mentioned. So can you explain us a little bit? What is it exactly and how is it helpful and how do you work with it.

Multiple Speakers 00:51:58  Yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:51:58  So internal family systems are kind of sharing a nutshell is it's Dick Schwartz. It's his that's his, you know, work and his life's work and that essentially they it's a modality that basically says, look, we've got a core self, a centre. Dick would say it's he would refer to as a self. I really think of it as a soul kind of our, our centre, our centre kind of being. he would say, his research would say we have this unbreakable part of our self. It's our centre.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:52:32  it consists of compassion, curiosity, clarity, creativity, curiosity, connectedness. confidence, courage. I think those are the the eight C's of the soul of the centre. And then when we have different, maybe trauma, maybe adverse situations, we kind of develop parts of ourselves, if I would say personally, when I was struggling in school, maybe a part that I developed was this kind of charming. Oh, I'm fine. Everything's great. This is great. I'm happy go lucky. I don't do well in school, but I don't care. You know, it was sort of a part, a part of myself that helped me cope with the fact that that was that part of me wasn't going well. Right. So, so understanding all the different parts of ourself and how to integrate that back into our centre, into our soul is always it's kind of a system that we do in our bodies. It's how we manage ourselves. It's how we manage anxiety, it's how we manage uncomfortable situations. It's how we manage everything.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:53:39  Is this system of parts? the goal would be to help people, really lead from the they're centre from their soul. And really, you know, for me, if I were to really look at that part of me, if I look back on that part that just wanted to think, oh, everything's okay, I'm happy go lucky. I would leave with a lot of compassion because I think that part was hurting. It was I don't really quite know how to fit in here. I don't know this isn't working for me. So. So when that park gets activated in me and it still does get activated at me, like, oh gosh. And you know, I did a talk a couple of days ago and you're always like, oh gosh, am I going to be asked the question I have an answer to? And am I to activate that part that that is young? You know what I mean? That when I was growing up, I was I never had the answer to something there to ask me.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:54:30  And I really, I don't know. so that part's always there. It's with you. But how can I lead with compassion, on that part and say, yeah, no, that that was hard. How can I lead from my center and really understand those different parts in me, and integrate them and have my, my core sort of take care of that part a little bit better? and, but you have to really understand your system and what that looks like and, you know, really developing, really developing also that center, you know, sometimes we're not very compassionate on ourselves. Sometimes we're not very courageous and we don't, you know, lean into that part of us because maybe we don't want to make a mistake. We don't. We want to be a perfectionist. So re ifs is the system of understanding all those different parts, but leading from that center, that center place.

Abdullah Boulad 00:55:25  So understanding and possibly also processing the axis. Yeah. Of oneself.

Multiple Speakers 00:55:30  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:55:33  we can then also call our gut feeling.

Multiple Speakers 00:55:35  Yeah, yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:55:36  Just trust in.

Multiple Speakers 00:55:37  Us.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:55:37  Yeah yeah yeah. And activate like we know when we feel activated. I know when I feel anxious about something and really sitting back and saying, okay, what what is activating me? What? How am I feeling? Activating. And what do I need? What does that part need? Is that part feeling anxious because they feel vulnerable? Is that part feeling, you know, like they're not sure if they're going to be able to do whatever they need to do. Right. So to be able to get to the center and to really provide comfort for that part that maybe feels anxious. And sometimes it really doesn't matter why it feels anxious, it just you. It's important to know what it needs and your center, your soul, who you are created to be knows what those needs are. And and and really leading from that place, helps us to give comfort to those other parts.

Abdullah Boulad 00:56:28  You mentioned a couple times. Soul.

Multiple Speakers 00:56:30  Yeah, yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:56:31  What's your understanding of soul?

Multiple Speakers 00:56:33  Yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:56:34  Well, I think the most important. So I was really drawn to Dick Schwartz's work because it's the only psychological theory that really leads that, that there's a kind of a spiritual component, a soul, a self component, a soul component. It's not it. The premises were not just body and brain where there's something more to us, there's something, there's something more inside of us. And so for me, that idea of soul, kind of reaches in to the divine, but I so I just wrote a book called lead from the soul. And the book really takes the it doesn't take a religious stance. It doesn't say, like it has to be this or that. It takes the stance that we all have a soul, and the soul is composed of these traits. And so when you journey on that soul, you begin to kind of understand that deeper part of yourself. And so I love that term. A lot of times I find that people in, that have really struggled and maybe had a lot of trauma, the self and Dick Schwartz were talking a lot about the self.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:57:44  The self has been damaged or it's been hurt. It's been, it feels wounded. So when we think about trying to draw from ourself, sometimes that's hard because it feels broken. It feels a little wounded. But when we think about really drawing from our soul, that feels like a deeper, more divine sort of spiritual peace within us. And people from all different faith backgrounds resonate with that, I find. And and they can they can kind of attach on to that. And so that's, that's what I really love, that kind of not defining it. But, but everybody kind of accesses it in their own way with their own journey.

Abdullah Boulad 00:58:26  So without connecting it to a specific religion, it's just the mind body soul aspect. Right. And and how do you integrate this into your work?

Multiple Speakers 00:58:35  Well, yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:58:36  And maybe you have a bit of an example. Just understand.

Multiple Speakers 00:58:40  It.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:58:41  Yeah. You know, I so for me, in my work, I'll, I'll really refer to people's soul.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:58:48  We'll kind of talk about it. We'll explain it. I'll, I'll integrate that by. I'll always refer to it as their soul. a lot of people that come and let me take one step back. People that come in to see me, I'll generally lead with. Is there a community group? Is there a faith group? Is there a church? Is there something that's meaningful for you? That's important for our time together that you want to talk about from that perspective? Generally, they'll go to the faith component and they'll say something like, I grew up in the church, but it's not important to me. Or but I see myself as a spiritual person or it's really important to me. I really want to integrate this in our work together. Or they'll say, it's kind of important to me, but I don't really understand it. But whatever it is, we kind of go from there. We start talking about it and then I'll say, okay, well, if we're talking about the soul, what is what is your understanding of the soul? We kind of talk about that a little bit.

Cheryl Donaldson 00:59:44  So when they come in and they're really activated, I try to get them to walk through the different parts within their soul. So we'll lead first with conscious like. Be aware of what's happening in your body. Where do you feel it? What's activated? Is your foot shaking? Is your back hurting? Is your head hurting? Where do you feel this activation in your body? And then how can you kind of focus there and be calm? How can you really use that part of your soul to be to calm that part and really acknowledge it's here? it's not going to overwhelm me. I can acknowledge it. I can, you know, a lot of times the anxiety, we just want to push it away. But how can we be conscious of it? How can we be calm? How can we be curious? What does it need? What do I think it needs for me right now? What is it? What is it saying to me? What's it saying about my life and what's happening? So we'll kind of go through these, this center soul attributes to help understand what's going on in their body.

Abdullah Boulad 01:00:48  I mean, when, when we think about soul, we also think about spirituality and possibly higher power as well. So how important is it that someone believes in a higher power?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:00:59  Yeah, I think with the higher power piece that's going to be individual to the person you're working with. So you always want to lead with what they're giving you, right? So if they're coming to me and they say I believe in a universal, God will go. We'll go in that direction. We'll begin to go in that direction. but it that's it's important that you acknowledge that that's their journey in the process of it. It's not. And so I hesitate to say that you have to have you have to connect to the higher power. I think when you connect to your soul, you're already connecting to a deeper, more spiritual part of yourself. You might not have defined that for yourself in any way, but you're you're connecting to something deeper within you, which effectively is is a higher power in some way. You know what I mean.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:01:57  And, but but it's important for me as a therapist not to define that for others, or to define if that's really important. Some people really might find that spirituality within nature when they're walking, they they find that grounding that deeper, that soul work within nature. So, so yeah. So I think I think it's important that people define what that is for them. and then also connect and begin to articulate what their soul is for them. And then if they don't believe in a soul, then we've got a whole other discussion that we can talk about. But but within their soul, that's a really important piece to to say, okay, where do I where do I feel that? A spark of the divine. You know, where is it a nature? Is it an you know, where is it? And then and then go from there and then lead from there.

Abdullah Boulad 01:02:47  Where am I going to solve the question if there is a bigger power?

Multiple Speakers 01:02:51  Yes yes yes yes that's right, that's right.

Abdullah Boulad 01:02:54  But yeah, everyone can can figure.

Multiple Speakers 01:02:57  It out yourself and. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:02:58  And we can call it for now connect to your inner self.

Multiple Speakers 01:03:02  Yes, absolutely. That's that's.

Abdullah Boulad 01:03:04  that's something we can we can.

Multiple Speakers 01:03:06  Do. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:03:07  But do you, do you come across a specific client group which has resistant to understand or to name sole?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:03:15  Yeah, it's a good question. no, I can't say that I have. No, but but I would also say that if someone's resisting thinking about their soul, they're also sometimes resisting connecting to a part of themselves, right. So we can refer to it as self. and if they connect there, we can start there, but we want to start with wherever they are connecting. but I generally don't I don't get that resistance. And if I do, then I just kind of move in a different direction, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not I'm not one that it has to be one way. Usually when they're resistant, it's the term.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:03:57  And it could be that maybe they it could be. Maybe they grew up in an environment where there was some abuse within sort of a spiritual component. Right. You have to be really sensitive to that. And that's a really tender, important place. And so soul might implicate something else of their tradition that was really hurtful. So you want to use whatever term works for them if they want to use inner core or if they want to use self, whatever it is, you've got to go with where they are, because that term shouldn't stop them from connecting to that inner part of them.

Abdullah Boulad 01:04:33  Yeah, adjust your wording based on what you have.

Multiple Speakers 01:04:35  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:04:36  And how would you speak and, and help leaders leadership. Yeah. mental health and leadership.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:04:44  Yeah. So I do I do consulting within leadership teams and a lot of what I do there sometimes I don't always use internal family systems language because, maybe it feels a little bit too personal to them at that point. As we get to know one another, we begin to kind of use that language.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:05:04  But I will definitely begin to say, okay, how can we lead from a compassionate perspective? So I'll be using that language. How can we understand that this is kind of activating you over here? It's taking it's really fussing you. What is that. How can we look at that and then lead from this part of you that is really strong and really create your kind of leader that's really kind, or you're this, how can we take this situation and filter it through this filter so that you're comfortable in your own skin and you're really using, you're really using your leadership skills that are going to work for you because people are going to really connect with you if you're authentically connecting with them. But but as leaders, we get activated by anything stress and accompany stress and people coming in. I mean, there's so many different things that can activate us. and then we're not leading from our center. We're leading from that place of activation. And so helping leaders understand when they feel activated and then what they need to do about that, and how they can readjust and lead from a different place will help them with burnout, and it'll help them with culture within their, within their environment.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:06:21  And it it gives them more energy because they're not they're not trying to fix themselves. They're acknowledging what's happening in that moment and then hopefully leading from a place of strength.

Multiple Speakers 01:06:33  Okay. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:06:34  So you use the basics of ifs.

Multiple Speakers 01:06:37  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:06:38  To to bring it into the corporate world.

Multiple Speakers 01:06:41  Yeah. Yes.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:06:41  And with leadership teams that maybe are getting along or, really the cultures that maybe need some adjusting and, and how can we kind of know better what's happening inside of us, when we're not connecting with our colleagues and, and we're not leading from a place of strength, how can we kind of begin to. It's a lot more coaching. It's a lot more, giving them tools to connect and collaborate a little bit better with one another.

Abdullah Boulad 01:07:11  Why did you start doing this? Working with corporates compared to, let's say, to families and children?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:07:18  I'm always looking for a challenge. That would be one thing. my my clinical practice in Charleston was it's it's primarily just, you know, families, individuals.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:07:31  And, and I turned to my husband one day and I said, you know, I really I really wanted to do something international, and I really wanted to go abroad and do something international. And now kind of to your point, I can do things virtually. I can do things, you know, I can have a zoom call, I can do whatever. So so I don't have to be here all the time to be able to work with people internationally. And I love I love the international, culture, the, the complexity of it, the different nationalities that are coming together and trying to work together. And just so I love that. And so for me, it's kind of happened naturally because I started connecting with schools to connect and see, okay, maybe I can build up a clientele here or there, but what's happened is I've begun to work on different projects and been pulled into, I'm working with a school in Rome, and I'm working with their leadership team. And so it's just different projects have come up, and it's more realistic to work in that way.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:08:35  And it still involves a systems, mindset because it's a system, obviously. and it's a family in some way. You know, in terms of how we get along and how we're connecting with one another. And so it was a natural progression. I've been a therapist for 30 years. And so it was a natural progression into another, clientele. And so that I really love.

Abdullah Boulad 01:08:58  You work with teams, not just with individuals.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:09:00  I work with teams. Yeah, I work with teams and I work with schools and churches. And you know, I present and, teach and yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:09:11  That's beautiful. And I think, I think that's, that's, that's something missing or every organization should have, implement such, such work. Yeah. Just to like as prevention but also improving communication and interaction and, and to be human first, within an organization.

Multiple Speakers 01:09:33  Yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:09:33  It saves the company money because when that stress gets so high. You're not working as hard and you're not. It's just taking a lot of your emotional energy.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:09:44  And then you have workers that aren't happy, and then maybe they'll leave and then do something else. And if you can coach them and if you can come alongside of them. you know, I was I was working with somebody within a school and I said, she said, I've been thinking about this one thing and the problem. And I said, okay, well, just do these couple of things. I think that if you switch these couple of things around, I think that will really make a difference. And she said, yeah, I've been thinking about this for a week. And I said, next time, call me. Just call me in about ten minutes. We'll sort it out, send you out. It'll probably work. It's not that complicated. but it's going to save you the energy of fretting and struggling and and so ultimately, it saves companies money as they're helping. just kind of coaching. And because you're when you're in it, it's really hard to see what's going to help, What will you know? Because there are so many different factors.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:10:38  And so having a coach and outside, helper just saves. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:10:44  And it improves communication, internal communication. That's what where most problems may come up. Yeah. Within an organization. Yeah. What's your experience on that.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:10:54  Yeah absolutely absolutely. It it you know communication can be really hard because what happens is that let's say something happens, right? Something doesn't go right or wrong. And you need to go to somebody and say, hey, this this didn't work for me. You know, I need to we need to do it differently. There's so many things around, you know, inside of us that can get activated. And when that happens that we're not just thinking, okay, how do I just solve this one problem and move forward? I mean, probably what needs to be said is I think we can both agree this did not work. Let's be collaborative on what could work better or different. But sometimes people get caught up in the weeds of why it didn't work, how my feelings were hurt.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:11:37  But not maybe not feelings, but how? I want to tell you how much it didn't work. You know, I want to tell you the ways it didn't work. Instead of like, I think that didn't work, let's move forward. What can we do differently? How can we do it better collaboratively? from our strengths and, you know, kind of offer one another, grace, if there's any kind of agitated feelings around it. But but move forward, you know.

Abdullah Boulad 01:12:00  It should be always topic oriented and less less about the person.

Multiple Speakers 01:12:04  Yes, exactly.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:12:05  Exactly.

Multiple Speakers 01:12:06  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:12:07  But I need to be imbalanced and I need to remove my triggers or do my inner work.

Multiple Speakers 01:12:14  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:12:14  So I can detach myself also from what can affect me or not. And then I can approach any communication in a different way, in a compassionate way. Also when I'm, when I speak with someone else. Yeah. And and there are so many types of questions? Yeah. in therapy, you use, like, on the cognitive behavioral therapy.

Abdullah Boulad 01:12:37  You use question as, as, as a tool. And I always I always say we should use more questions also internally leaving options to team members, to make their own decisions. Yeah. Or bring up their own opinions instead of just telling.

Multiple Speakers 01:12:54  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:12:55  so communication is is is key in that.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:12:59  And I love that. It's like it's like what you do with your son. You lead with curiosity. That would be that core sort of that center soul piece. You're you're saying to him, hey, what what works for you? Do you think do you want me to stay or not stay. And you're curious about his perspective? I think there's so many times where, let's say something goes wrong at work. You're not curious. You're very quick to say not you. But, I mean, anybody, you know, as quick to say like that didn't work as opposed to help me to understand where you were going with this. Help me to talk me through this because this kind of didn't work.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:13:31  And I'm curious about what you were doing here and what that means, and that that sort of curious inquiry that you can kind of say, help me to understand where you were coming from is valuing it's compassionate. It's it's just, it's from a center. It's from a center place. And then if you're like, I don't I don't know if that I wouldn't agree with that. Or maybe that didn't really work, but I'm now I know where you were coming from. People generally don't start what they want to do at work. Like, I really want to mess this up. I really I really would like for this to go badly, you know what I mean? And so being curious about that just values and says, hey, I really I really think you're a valuable team member. Where are you going with this? And what was that? What was happening?

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:18  I mean, the situation with my son, for example, I, I give him these options.

Multiple Speakers 01:14:22  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:23  You know, very often he would his first reaction would be no.

Multiple Speakers 01:14:28  Yeah, yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:29  But then, okay.

Multiple Speakers 01:14:30  That's fine. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:32  If my reaction is yes okay, that's fine. Then he rethinks and then he, he would say, you know what? It's okay.

Multiple Speakers 01:14:38  Today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:39  And and my understanding in organizations, no one wants everyone wants to do things good.

Multiple Speakers 01:14:49  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:49  No one has a bad intention. Yeah, right. unless they are triggered in one or the other way. So in communication, I believe we have to remove the triggering part. We never know what. Somehow someone could be triggered. But we know it's about their own self-esteem. We know about their possible own trauma. we don't know that. Yeah. So why would I point out a problem if something comes up?

Multiple Speakers 01:15:20  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:15:20  But instead, more invite and bring more curiosity. The. Why has this been like that? What happened? What motivated to. To do this in that way. And then have a conversation about it. What was the goal? Where do we want to be? Is it serving the purpose, etc..

Cheryl Donaldson 01:15:40  Yeah, exactly. And and it's even as you're asking those questions, there's a lightness. You know, there's a, there's energy when you come in and say, why did you do that? Or, you know, in a sort of a there's there's a heavy energy, but there's a light energy of like, okay, let's sort of think that through and, you know. So yeah, I think that that's really. And again, that's, you know, you know, when you're leading from a rigid place that's not going to be your center and that rigid place where, let's say hypothetically with your son, if you said no, you have to do this. Well, that would be a rigid response. He's going to respond in a rigid way. Well, no, I you know, I want to do it my way. I don't want to do it that way. And then it's like a power struggle and, you know, but when it's a centre, when it's a core, you're, you're also kind of connecting to his core.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:16:28  It's it's, Hey, you have these you have these options. I can be curious. I can, you know, kind of figure that out. And and that's where that's where that self, that's where that energy, that's what that grounding kind of kind of comes from. And you can see when you're not grounded, when you're from these other parts, how it ends up going really awry, you know. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:16:51  And in an organization I get more respected if I help someone get to some realization instead of just telling that wrong or that's how it should be or that was expected. Yeah. So it it increases collaboration and respect. and authority.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:17:09  Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. That connectedness you're going to feel valued. And at the end of the day you're going to work. Want to work harder because you're invested. Because you feel like someone's invested in you. So when someone's invested in you, there's a sense of, for lack of a better word, loyalty, or there's a sense of connectedness, a sense of we're in this together.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:17:28  I purpose here and and that's a good that's a good company culture. You want that you want that company culture. You don't want that demeaning, devaluing, rigid.

Multiple Speakers 01:17:39  existing behind.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:17:40  Yeah. Just that backstabbing kind of. It just doesn't it, it doesn't get work done.

Abdullah Boulad 01:17:46  And this is where then employees leave leaders and and and not the organization.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:17:50  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Multiple Speakers 01:17:52  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:17:53  But still, is communication the only tool to improve mental health in organizations or would you see any other, tools?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:18:02  Yeah. No, that's a great question. I would say communication. But then also that connectedness, you know, tracking with one another and obviously that that's important that, you know, it's I mean, it'd be a couple of things. It would be communication for sure. as leaders, it's really important to know how to track and be connected to our colleagues. Maybe that report to us. So part of that is going to be communication. If you're not able to communicate, then you're not going to feel connected.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:18:32  But that connection piece can come and go based on how you, maybe how you're stressed in your own personal life. Maybe you're just distracted that that connection is also going to be another area that you're going to really that you're going to really need. And and then there's education. There's continuing to allow them to learn and to understand and understand what their strengths and weaknesses are, understand how they can engage better and what they're doing. So it's it's kind of a multi faceted I think the relationship is the most important. If we're not connected, a lot of things are going to break down. Yeah. And feeling cared for. But also within companies it's really important to constantly being educating people on just how they are managing themselves and how they are really growing and managing. Also, it's really important that they understand how they can manage their own wellness. What you know, so it's not just maybe communication is going really well, but they're working too hard. They need to understand okay, how do I how do I manage this.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:19:35  How is leaders. Can we give them opportunities to grow and wellness, opportunities for, you know, exercise and being outside and, you know, so many different things that we're giving them.

Abdullah Boulad 01:19:47  Yeah, they need to be empowered.

Multiple Speakers 01:19:48  Yes.

Abdullah Boulad 01:19:49  And self-care activities as well as the, feeling cared for.

Multiple Speakers 01:19:54  Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:19:55  Yeah, absolutely.

Abdullah Boulad 01:19:57  What do you do in your daily life to stay in balance?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:20:01  I have a high bar for what I would like to do. Whether I get it done every day is not necessarily the case, but I like to. For me, I like to spend time in nature. I like to read things that are inspiring to me. I like to spend time and quiet walking and really thinking about my intention for the day. Really connecting with my soul, connecting what's important in my soul. that's what for sure. Every day keeps me in balance. My family keeps me in balance. You know, being connected and tracking with my husband really keeps me in balance. Tracking with my kids.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:20:39  and, I like to exercise, so I don't always get to exercise as much as I would like. but my friends keep me in balance. I mean, especially as a therapist. I have friends that are not involved at all in the clinical space, and they. I just get to laugh and be ridiculous, and they don't. You know, when you're only friends with people that are all psychologists, they can get really heavy because you're really heavy work. But a lot of my friends aren't. And so, it it just keeps it light and fun. And so those are things that I do.

Multiple Speakers 01:21:14  Yeah. Very nice. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:21:15  You also wrote here beautiful book.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:21:18  Yes, yes. My husband and I wrote that together, which has been really fun. Yeah.

Multiple Speakers 01:21:22  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:21:22  Can you explain to me a little bit a little bit about that?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:21:25  Yeah, yeah. So it's called lead from the Soul and it's a guided journal. And so I was gosh, probably about a year ago, a friend of mine came to me and he said, I'm writing this curriculum on trauma informed leadership.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:21:41  can you write the clinical piece? And it was primarily for, African bishops and archbishops that they could understand their own trauma so that they could help themselves and manage their own trauma, as well as how can they then help people in their congregations that are experiencing trauma? So he said, Will you write this curriculum that we can then teach, to the African leaders and and empower them and give them these skills? So I started working on it and, I started looking at ifs, the internal family systems, because I really felt like that was a great model, especially for the churches. And then I started really developing the soul and what really what really came out of it. And I spent some time in Costa Rica with Dick Schwartz. He was teaching a a whole week. So I kind of immersed myself the whole week in ifs in Costa Rica, in a rural area. And that's all I did. And I wasn't working, and I just kind of wrote and sort of experienced ifs for myself and how my internal system was operating.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:22:46  And, so I wrote that initially thinking of these leaders. But what came out of it was, gosh, we all have that soul. It doesn't have to be just for church leaders or people of faith. We all. Dick really talked about everyone having the self. And so the book, I really wanted to do a guided journal I really felt like I wanted to give people interactive exercises that they could do. I find with my clients I we talk a lot about the soul, but when I send them home and they get activated, they're like, what do I do? And so I came with a lot of exercises in there, and I took quotes that could hopefully, kind of help people along the way to think of different things I did theologians, thought leaders, world leaders. You know, I just kind of did a range of quotes. And then just to kind of help people throughout the week begin to think, what is it? What? How do I develop calm? How do I develop confidence? How do I lean into that part of myself? And so that's what that's what the whole book is about.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:23:53  It's a way for people to work on that on their own. sometimes I, you know, I work on it with people in, in session. But then I also send them home with exercises and ways to think about that. And so it's been really helpful.

Multiple Speakers 01:24:08  Beautiful.

Abdullah Boulad 01:24:09  Thank you for bringing.

Multiple Speakers 01:24:10  This practical.

Abdullah Boulad 01:24:12  Book into.

Multiple Speakers 01:24:13  Life. Yeah, yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:24:14  Have one last question.

Multiple Speakers 01:24:16  Yes.

Abdullah Boulad 01:24:17  If there is one wisdom you would like to share with everyone in the world for them individually to implement in their life, what would that be?

Cheryl Donaldson 01:24:25  I would say that's a heavy question. I would say the one thing I would hope is that people would look at adversity as opportunities to grow and be deeper as people. I would say so when I think of all the different situations in my life where I've grown the most, it's always been through adversity. And I think that a lot of times in the lives of our kids, we don't want them to have adversity or we don't want them to struggle and we don't want to struggle because that's a bummer.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:24:55  It's not fun. But if I reflect back on my life, I feel like that adversity has created more. It's messy, but it's created more depth than me as a person. It's been it's given me the opportunity to be more compassionate when other people are struggling. and so if I would if I would think of one thing I would say to be able to see adversity in our own lives and the lives of others as opportunities for growth and and to find hope that we're going to come out to the other side on that and to reach out for help, of course, if we're really struggling. But to know that we can, that we can grow as individuals and come out on the other side.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:38  So I.

Multiple Speakers 01:25:39  Love that. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:39  Yeah, that's that's a good mindset.

Multiple Speakers 01:25:42  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:43  Thank you very much.

Multiple Speakers 01:25:44  For.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:25:45  Having.

Multiple Speakers 01:25:45  Me.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:45  Taking the time being here. all the work you do. I enjoyed our conversation a lot, and I wish you all the best. going forward, wherever your life journey will lead you.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:58  In which city and which country?

Multiple Speakers 01:25:59  Yeah, exactly.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:26:00  Exactly.

Multiple Speakers 01:26:01  Thank you.

Cheryl Donaldson 01:26:01  Thank you. Thank you so much.