The Psychology of Grief: Ritual, Loss, and Why Love Never Leaves Us

In this compassionate and thought-provoking episode, Gita Chaudhuri, Director of Psychotherapy at The Balance, guides us through the complex terrain of grief. From personal loss to collective mourning, Gita offers a grounded and deeply human understanding of what it means to grieve.

She explores the difference between normal and complicated grief, how pain is not a problem to be fixed but a reflection of love, and why rituals—both personal and cultural—matter in our healing process. With warmth and clinical clarity, Gita shares how therapy can help us navigate the chaos of loss, make space for transformation, and carry forward what we’ve lost without letting it define us.

As a psychotherapist, Gita combines psychological depth with spiritual insight, holding space for grief in all its forms, from the death of a loved one to sudden trauma to the quieter, everyday losses that shape our lives.

🔗 Tune in for an honest conversation about grief, love, and the long, winding road toward healing.

About Gita:
Gita Chaudhuri is the Director of Psychotherapy at The Balance, where she leads a multidisciplinary team supporting clients through trauma, grief, and emotional recovery. With over 20 years of experience, Gita brings a rare ability to hold emotional depth, cultural nuance, and therapeutic precision—all in service of helping people find meaning in their pain and the courage to move forward.

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Chapters

• 0:00 What Is Grief?
• 2:58 The Stages of Grief: Messy, Nonlinear & Unique
• 6:00 When Grief Becomes Complicated
• 8:27 Losing a Parent vs. Losing a Child
• 11:15 How Therapy Helps Us Grieve
• 13:06 Denial, Oscillation & Emotional Protection
• 14:24 Grief Across Cultures: Rituals & Expression
• 17:23 Personal Story: Abdullah on Losing His Father
• 20:30 Children & Grief
• 23:01 How Grief Transforms Us
• 26:21 Grief in the Body: Physical & Cognitive Effects
• 30:46 Crying, Cultural Norms & Emotional Release
• 39:12 Traumatic Loss, Anniversaries & Long-Term Support
• 42:41 Guilt & Forgiveness in the Grief Journey
• 47:16 How Attachment Shapes Our Grief
• 50:07 Stuck Grief & When to Seek Help
• 54:19 Sudden Death vs. Anticipated Death
• 1:02:09 Suicide, Terminal Illness & Self-Determined Death
• 1:11:06 Rituals, Religion & Making Meaning After Loss
• 1:18:24 Grief Therapy: Group Support, Trauma Work & Timing
• 1:23:03 When to Seek Therapy: Normal vs. Complicated Grief
• 1:27:04 Religion, Spirituality & Signs from the Beyond
• 1:32:02 Energy, Afterlife & Legacy: What Remains After Loss
• 1:38:13 Final Words: Grief as Transformation & Trusting the Process

Transcript

Gita Chaudhuri  00:00:00  No one really likes to talk about grief. Sometimes people say, you have to let go. And it's very, very difficult, almost impossible for people to let go. This guy played this music and that was the first time when I started to cry.

Abdullah Boulard 00:00:13  Imagine my father passing away and I needed to rethink who am I and what. What is it I want to do in life?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:00:22  There's no right and wrong in grief. Grief is good. Grief is important, and grief is natural. When someone dies, we suddenly realize what is really important for us.

Abdullah Boulard 00:00:35  Every loss in life will give space to something new. Welcome to the living, Alive and Balanced podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balance Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Geeta Chowdhury, clinical psychologist and head of psychotherapy at The balance. In this episode, we explore the experience of grief and the many different forms it presents itself. Gita helps us understand the difference between healthy, adaptive grief and more complicated processes where therapy becomes essential, such as when someone is emotionally blocked, unable to function, or burdened by unresolved trauma.

Abdullah Boulard 00:01:21  We also discuss the role of therapy not as a way to fix grief, but as a space to support, stabilize, and ultimately integrate the pain of loss from body based techniques to imaginative rituals. Gita shares how she helps clients find safety, meaning and even connection with the person that they have lost. This episode also explores how the expression of grief has evolved in the modern world. How the loss of traditional rituals and communal Frameworks leaves many people grieving in isolation, without a clear language or guidance, and how we can create our own structure to heal. What did the loss is of a loved one, a relationship, a sense of safety, or even a part of oneself? We explore how grief, although deeply painful, can become a transformative part of our emotional lives. I hope you will enjoy guitar. Today we are talking about something which affects our every one of us experience at least once in their life. It's grief. And what is your understanding of grief and what is related to grief when become grief? Therapeutic or we need therapeutic support to get, to overcome grieving process.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:02:58  Yeah. No, I think it's a very important and, interesting topic. And, it's often difficult for people to talk about grief. Even grief is something that is almost excluded from the normal life. Right? but it's something so normal. Grief is the reaction, the response to a loss. Yeah. Grief is a process that we go through in order to overcome a loss, a loss of a lost loved one or the loss of something that was important for us, like a career, a job, a partner, a friend. and grief is actually the process of, yeah, getting over it, adapting to the new situation. But grief is not pleasant. Grief is something that is painful and, and also sometimes chaotic dig. And, you go through different stages where you really feel down and devastated, and then you maybe dissociate and you try to forget and you are constantly changing between different states. That is grief, I'd say. So first of all, it's something very natural. It's an adaptive process, a process that helps us to cope and to, to find new perspectives after a loss.

Abdullah Boulard 00:04:25  So it's always related with the loss of a loved one or someone close to us.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:04:30  Yes, I'd say we can also grieve, you know, a lost part of our life as an I lost my innocence or I lost my childhood. I never had a really a real childhood. I didn't have this careless, time, you know, things like that. We can we can grieve many things. But grief has mostly to do with loss. Yes, I'd say.

Abdullah Boulard 00:04:54  And are there any specific stages? we have to go through or we go through, or is it a back and forwards process?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:05:02  You can't really talk about phases as a first. What this happens then that it's more chaotic and it's more, like, you know, an oscillating between different states or different emotional states that can be really, really intense. but but I know that in the literature they often describe those faces, and sometimes it can be maybe helpful as an orientation. You know, first you, you don't want to, you don't want to accept, and then you refuse, you know, and then you get angry, and then you start to accept, and then you find new ways.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:05:39  but actually, in reality, it's a little bit different. It changes. And it's, it also depends on, on so many factors and on the individuals and the context, how this process really goes.

Abdullah Boulard 00:05:51  But there are stages everyone goes through at some point of that process is what I. What I understand probably.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:06:00  Yeah, the process is about going through these emotions. and these emotions are important. For example, pain. Pain is an emotion that is not pleasant, but it shows also. It shows the whole system. Something is not right. I have to cope with something that is pain. And also pain creates empathy. on a social and interpersonal level, right? So pain is actually a healing power. But if we ignore pain or if we all get overprotective with pain, it can also become a dysfunctional thing. So it's the same for grief and the pain of grief. The pain and grief expresses actually that that that we lost is really important for us. We if we, feel pain when we lose someone we love, then the pain is the expression for that love.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:06:51  So it's I would reframe this pain and this grief as an expression of, you know, this love and this, attachment that we have to things. And the process is to, to kind of, you know, find a new way of this attachment of this bond. and also to realize it's gone in the way we had it. So it's a transformation process, grief. and it's difficult. So we need a lot of support. We need to learn how to contain all these intense emotions. We need to to find this acceptance, this realization that this happened and that is not easy. So sometimes people can get stuck in this process or they don't know how to navigate their emotions. So so they start to distract themselves from these emotions or even dissociate and really ignore those emotions and then these processes can become complicated. And that is actually when we when it can become a clinical issue also. And also a loss can be very traumatic. it depends again on the context. If you lose, someone like your grandmother dies after a long life and she's she became really old.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:08:12  Then it's different. Then you lose your child, for example, you know, or if there's violence involved or if you had a complicated relationship or relationship to this person that can make it more difficult for this process of grief.

Abdullah Boulard 00:08:27  Well, where is the differentiation between, let's say, a regular grieving process and or a normal grieving process? And, and, and the complicated one.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:08:37  In the first 6 to 9 months, anything is possible in grief. There is no real structure where we can say it has to be like this, otherwise it's not real grief, you know? So it's very individual. And as I said, it depends on so many factors how grief looks. But after this amount of time, more or less, you know, something should become a little bit easier around it. The processing would start, you integrate, you know, this experience and so on. And after like maybe also very often after one year, for example, the first anniversary of the loss, you know, everything gets activated again.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:09:16  And people, you know, start to remember again and have intense emotions. And then sometimes it turns out that things remain unresolved. This the loss is unresolved. It's not integrated. It's not being processed. So this could look like people cannot get over it. They stay in the same pain, in the same intensity of pain. They can't function in real life. They lose interest in all other things of life, which is normal in the beginning. It's also because that's kind of, Biologically, it makes a lot of sense. You need more energy to go through the process. So you can't just function normally. You have to retreat a little bit from normal life. Right? Because you need a lot of energy and strength and also social support in order to go through something difficult. But if people get stuck there and they don't know how to return to normal life, it can become an issue or the other way around. They still don't want to accept they they are still looking for the lost person or for the deceased, you know, or they they like.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:10:23  I had clients there that are who are still talking, you know, but not in a, in an adaptive way, but as if they were really there, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 00:10:32  Or talking to pictures or.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:10:34  Which can be fine sometimes because that would be like creating or establishing or building a new relationship to the disease, which can also make sense. But sometimes if, You know, if the acceptance, doesn't really come, it also blocks this, you know, the normal kind of life. And coming back to to having new relationships, to people who are alive, you know. So it's either you totally ignore, the grief or you get drowned in, in these emotions and totally overwhelmed. Either way, it can become complicated.

Abdullah Boulard 00:11:15  Then, yes, in a normal way of living, usually a child would experience or an adult child would experience a death of of a parent, let's say, how how would it be different if, if, if a parent loses a child.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:11:35  If a parent loses a child? I think as parents and we both our parents know Our most vulnerable point is like losing our child, right? It is like it feels so much against nature.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:11:49  And we have this instinct and this intuition to protect our children and to, you know, be there for them and all this. So and also we we want to give them a future. We see they have all their life ahead of them. So if a child dies, that is a massive, I would say a severe loss, almost always a traumatic loss, you know, and then if it's a sudden accident or if violence is included or even suicide or drugs or whatever, you know, so maybe the parent would even also feel guilty. Guilt is something that complicates the process of grief, for example. Yeah. And it's a severe loss. So it's very, very difficult to to accept something like this. So in a In grief counseling or in grief support, we help people go through this first phase where they need to learn to contain and navigate those very overwhelming emotions and slowly but surely find back to, you know, a life. And in therapy we would also work on the trauma, on the traumatic part, on the guilt part, and so on.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:13:06  And in therapy we we talk about two, let's say, levels of the work. One is the realization so that that will lead to the acceptance, the realization that someone is really gone. And the other side is, the relationship we work on, the relationship to the person who has passed and trying to build to transform this physical relationship that has ended into something internal, a more, let's say, spiritual relationship. You know, because sometimes people say, oh, you have to let go. And it's very, very difficult, almost impossible for people to let go of the grief or let go of the, deceased one, because that would mean I stop loving this person, or if I stop grieving this person, you know, so we don't we are not talking about letting go. We are talking about transforming and and accepting and finding a new way how to love this person and how to be connected to this person, if that makes any sense.

Abdullah Boulard 00:14:14  Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned also like a process which should lead to accepting that someone is gone.

Abdullah Boulard 00:14:24  So this would mean that many, many of people in a grief and bereavement process, they are in denial. Initially, what was your experience?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:14:34  Yes, which is a very kind of natural part of grief. The denial is a is a self-protective response, you know, because otherwise it would be too overwhelming if it if we from the first moment on on accept and realize everything. It's almost impossible to cope with something like that, you know. So denial is a natural kind of break in a break to say, okay, now I can't grieve now, I can't go through these emotions. I have to withdraw from it, and I have to pretend nothing happen. And this is why I said, you know, it's some kind of oscillating, movement between I accept I, I'm in pain, I'm sad, I cry, then I'm angry, then I deny again. I don't want to know anything about it. I distract myself, I pretend it never happened and so on, you know, and in this process of oscillating, ideally, we can learn to accept and we can learn to go through this process of transformation.

Abdullah Boulard 00:15:43  So this is a healthy process basically.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:15:46  In the end. But some people get stuck in this denial because they don't know how to navigate those emotions, for example, or they lack the support, or it's too difficult because the emotions are too complicated, too confusing because the relationship was difficult. Or as I said, there is some guilt involved or some anger, you know, if, if people have, for example, difficult relationships to their parents and then they die, it's so much more difficult to grieve. I know that from my own experience. Then when you, like, really had a very positive relationship, you know, it's it's also easier then to it sounds maybe paradox, but, you know, it's easier then to, to go to through this grief because maybe you feel guilty then that you had some conflicts with this person who has gone, you know, or unresolved issues. so many things can, can contribute to a complicated grief. Also, if someone just disappears and you don't know where they are, you know, and you don't even know, is is are they dead or are they just gone or or if someone commits suicide, it also can feel like a very aggressive act against you, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:17:05  or if someone is being killed by an accident you ask yourself why, why, why did that happen. And so you're looking for answers and this is all part of this process.

Abdullah Boulard 00:17:15  Yes.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:17:16  That that and we need a lot of guidance and a lot of support in those processes.

Abdullah Boulard 00:17:21  Like friends, family for example.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:17:23  But nowadays it's also as I as we said in the beginning, no one really likes to talk about grief, and no one really likes to talk about intense, unpleasant feelings and everyone has to be good and well and happy all the time, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 00:17:37  And society.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:17:38  Yeah. So. And also we lack traditions and rituals and, you know, there's less and less cultural background in other cultures. I don't know how, like, you know, how you see it. But for example, in my family from India, they grieve in a very different way than they do in Western Europe. You know, and in some cultures, like, for example, in the, in, in the Western countries, it's a very practical process.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:18:06  You have to go through some paperwork. You know, you have to organize the funeral. You have to invite some people. You have to sort out the heritage thing, whatever.

Abdullah Boulard 00:18:16  It's technical.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:18:17  Yeah, very much. But where's the space for grief? For example, I, in Greece, they there are women who are who come like they do it as a almost as a professional. So when someone has died and they sing and cry and really scream and it's like a ritual. So they have very emotional and they express everything. And that encourages the family members, you know, who lost someone to to engage with the process and, you know, and to identify with this, with the singing and the singing helps to express the pain. So, for example, when when we help someone navigating emotions, it's mostly through the body. People don't know how to deal with emotions because they are also so disconnected from their body. So the screaming, the mouth, we could say is the gateway for pain, for, integrating or processing or expressing pain.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:19:18  You scream and then maybe you cry, you know, and but people don't allow themselves anymore to do that. You know, in most Western countries, for example, in India, they also they sing, they celebrate, you know, they have their rituals, they come together, the whole community. They have these burning gods. For example, in Hinduism, they have beliefs, strong belief, religion, you know, spiritual beliefs. And in the Western countries this has also, you know, kind of disappeared more and more. So people are kind of clueless. Well, how what can I do? How do I and also, if you know someone who is in acute grief, maybe you don't know what to say to them and what is the right thing. And, you know, so people are very helpless. And this can also really complicate the process of grieving.

Abdullah Boulard 00:20:13  Yeah, I feel, I feel I feel the same also, in the European, Western society, it's like as you mentioned, you get to the, to the funeral and then the after the funeral, you're left by by yourself.

Abdullah Boulard 00:20:30  Even within the siblings, you don't talk about it anymore. You don't exchange what it is about. Whereas in Lebanon, when my father passed away, he wanted to be buried in Beirut, in Lebanon. So we had a funeral there. But the funeral is like a three days, event. Yeah. We have an open house. Sometimes you you, you and you rent something a larger.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:20:58  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:20:59  Room, and. Yeah. And everyone is welcome. Friends, families, neighbors. And they can come and go whenever they feel it's right. And it allows the initial process to talk and to. Yeah. To express feelings.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:21:14  Absolutely. So I think it's important it's important to, to foster this, you know, to, to really you know, keep those rituals, whatever kind of rituals these are that, you know, but it has to be something that we. And rituals is something that happens automatically and with a common sense. Everyone knows how it works, you know. So we don't have to think about it.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:21:36  I remember when my dad died that well, he died in Germany very suddenly, but he has Indian roots, so we don't really know. What do we do in Indian or German kind of ceremony or what? What rituals do we have? Right. So in the end, we if we found our way and it was some kind of a mix, which was also great. And I remember there was this sitar player, you know, this instrument Zeta. And there are special, ragas for grief, you know, and it's a very intense music. And this guy played this music. And that was the first time when I started to cry, actually, before I just could not, you know, it was a very sudden death, and I was I also felt like I'm frozen, you know, I'm in this free state and with this music, everything started to release. And this is. These things are necessary to go through the process. And also, as you said, being together with people, having a community, having social support, not feeling alone.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:22:40  And I heard from many clients that after the first few weeks that is over. Then then you're alone with your grief and no one really takes care of it anymore. And they sometimes even hear things like, you have to get over it now. Now you have to let go, which is of course, not possible.

Abdullah Boulard 00:23:01  Yes.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:23:01  And, yeah. And then the loneliness kicks in, and then you can feel very overwhelmed by the emotions, or it's just too difficult to accept the loss. And then sometimes therapy becomes necessary. And I can also, talk about later how we, how we do that and and and and but because you asked. And if a child loses their parent, you know, that's a different thing. A little bit of children depend on their parents, of course. So it's also a severe loss to lose a parent when you're a child. And most of the times when a child loses someone, maybe one parent, the other parent is also in grief. So a child loses more than one person? Actually, yes, because the parent that is in grief cannot, maybe cannot take care of the child in the same way.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:23:59  So, it is necessary that the child won't be forgotten. You know, on the other hand, children have less, kind of rational filters and concepts and, it's very they have this imagination and they can imagine, the the the like the last ones as angels or some kind of spirits, you know, or fairies or whatever.

Abdullah Boulard 00:24:30  Yeah. They may accept something more spiritual or.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:24:33  Yes, it's easier for them, actually. They have they have a more natural, innate concept of of death.

Abdullah Boulard 00:24:41  And it depends on the age probably.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:24:43  Yeah. It depends a lot on the age and how you, but my experience is that working with children who are in grief is easier somehow, because they are still also more in touch with their emotions very often. And that is something that we can use also.

Abdullah Boulard 00:25:03  Probably also as long as they have like, another figure for them. Yes. Versus really being alone or losing, let's say, both parents in an accident versus having someone who can be close to you.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:25:19  Yes, of course they need someone. They need someone who, Who validates their feelings. Who contains their feelings, who explains a lot, you know, and also who is open enough to talk about what has happened. Because sometimes we don't want to talk about it, you know, and we like actually when the first approach, when we talk to people who have, for example, gone through a traumatic loss or so we really ask what has happened instead of saying, oh, it's going to be okay or something, you know, because that is not habits. It's not going to be okay. And it's the most stupid thing to say to someone in this case, you know, but asking with a lot of empathy but also with clarity and, and, you know, strength and firmness to say, like what has happened and showing this kind of interest is more helpful. And then they can talk about what what has happened.

Abdullah Boulard 00:26:13  It's something definitely I mean, from an intellectual perspective, we can talk about it and then in a more calm and easy way.

Abdullah Boulard 00:26:21  But if some anyone, anyone who has experienced a death and for close to one it's it can be so painful and I, I experienced this also myself it was I mentioned my father passing away.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:26:41  And were you around or were was he in a different country? But he was in Lebanon.

Abdullah Boulard 00:26:46  And he was on vacation. Actually, he was in Lebanon on vacation. And it was a sudden he was still young. And and then when it happened. Yeah. Just you I was not expecting it. And then then you get the information. It was still he was he was still okay. He was. He went to the hospital. He had a stroke. He went to the hospital. So we traveled there. We could see him, but he was unconscious. So it was already, a difficult state, a difficult situation. And but after one day he he passed away because there were.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:27:23  But he was he could not not talk with him. He was he kept.

Abdullah Boulard 00:27:27  Unfortunately.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:27:27  Being unconscious. Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:27:29  He stayed in this coma kind of thing.

Abdullah Boulard 00:27:30  He was in this coma and he was not able to to do anything. Yeah. So it was very painful because I lost also a person who was my role model in life.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:27:43  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:27:43  And, and, so to cope with these difficult moments is also not, not easy for everyone.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:27:50  So how did you do this then? What was helpful for you?

Abdullah Boulard 00:27:55  It was phases. what helped is, was to to speak with people and to to share that there is there are others who feel the same. Yeah. So it's not just.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:28:09  Me or not. You were not alone.

Abdullah Boulard 00:28:11  Was not alone?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:28:12  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:28:12  We exchanged In stories. We talked about memories.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:28:16  Exactly. That's how you kept him alive at first. Right? Yes. You're his energy. Yeah. They are so important to talk about someone who has.

Abdullah Boulard 00:28:27  Yeah. And reminded each other about. Denies the good moments. Yeah. But. But still, I had to go through this myself.

Abdullah Boulard 00:28:34  And the first and the first phase, it was like I was frozen. I was questioning life. Yeah. I was like, what? Because I grew up in a way where I wanted my father to be proud of me. Everything I've done, I would I would want to go and tell him so, and I lost that. Yeah. I, I needed to rethink who am I and what what is it I want to do in life?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:29:03  How old were you?

Abdullah Boulard 00:29:05  this was happening in 2017, actually. So.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:29:10  Okay. See, but what you're telling me now is, you know exactly what I was trying to point out. It depends on the. Not just on what happened and when. How old were you? Or so, but it's like your relationship with him and what he meant to you, you know? And this, this, contributes to how intense it feels. You know, so you. So he was a very important person for you and a role model and, and a great father figure.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:29:41  And you weren't there. It was. It came unexpected. And you couldn't even talk to him anymore. You couldn't say the things. Maybe that didn't that hadn't been said, you know, or you couldn't ask him anything.

Abdullah Boulard 00:29:55  And I'm lucky, I know I knew that he was proud of me. I, I everything I wanted in our relationship, it was already there. So I had nothing I, I regret or so, but still it was like it started just going through his his belongings and reflecting on his life, what he had to go through the ups and downs and and this, this led like to, to rethink. Is it worth it, is it worth it to go some pain or to give importance to certain situations in life? So this led in me to, to to question my values. I had until then and to rethink what is it I want to focus at? What is it to have out of this life?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:30:46  I think that's a very important point. Also, like when someone dies, we suddenly realize what is really important for us in life and that we should really be grateful for something, some things, you know, and that we maybe should not care so much about other things, you know? so, yeah, we question our values and We maybe become aware of how short life is and how, and that we cannot take it for granted in a way.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:31:15  Is that what you mean?

Abdullah Boulard 00:31:16  Like, yeah, it's not about. It was for me personally, it was not about life or fear of life or death. I, I did not fear death in that, in that sense, but it I, I got this feeling of I want to do I want just enjoy the ride and I want to do the best thing I can do without without doing it for anyone. just see me first. My family. and and not not for others. And this was actually the start and the beginning of of a decision to move to Majorca and to start the balance here.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:31:58  Interesting. Wow. So it marks some kind of, change in your life. This crisis of, the loss of your father, also was a huge shift and transformation in your life. And and that's beautiful, actually. But it was painful and it was difficult. And maybe sometimes you questioned everything during this process. It wasn't so clear from the beginning, I'm sure. Right. And also but what you said also going through his belongings and talking about him.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:32:31  So that was all part of the realization that he's really gone and that he's no longer there and that he left a huge gap, maybe. But then also, like you keep him alive, you still love him. He has a place in your heart and, been besides other people who also still have a place in your heart. Right. So this is this sounds like a, like a very normal, natural process of grief. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:33:00  No, it was my process. I'm pretty sure I experienced this, in everyone experiences.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:33:06  Different. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:33:07  and and, Yeah, I think I think in my case, I can say it's still painful. It's still painful. Painful in a different way. Let's call it. It's, It's good to think about him. It's painful, but it's also joy in different emotions at the same time.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:33:28  I understand. And I think that's also important. I think the pain and the grief about his death will never go away, really. But you grow around it, right? It's not so.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:33:38  It's not so huge anymore. As if there's nothing else. It's still there. And you even you kind of. Yeah, use this energy to build something or to move on in your life. That is really great.

Abdullah Boulard 00:33:53  I would maybe not have made the decision to move from Switzerland, knowing my my parents are there, but this this shift made me to make decisions which maybe I wouldn't have done before. So and this gave me also the realization. Every loss in life allows also or gives space to something new, new realization, new action, new people.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:34:25  That is true. I mean, and in the Hinduism, for example, they believe in, you know, reincarnation, but they also believe in this trinity of, creation, and destruction and, and creation, maintenance and destruction, you know. So someone and the god of destruction, which is Shiva, is the most adored one because only through destruction new things can be created. And, and and I think that's a beautiful philosophy. but actually, to tell this someone who was, you know, just lost someone who is in a very intense phase of grief.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:35:05  Maybe it wouldn't be the right thing, you know. And I think before you give, like it will be okay or he will be in a different in a better place or you.

Abdullah Boulard 00:35:14  Will.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:35:14  He. Yeah, something like that. So in the beginning I think it's to coming back to our topic here. Right. It's important to also encourage people to stay with this feeling of it's painful and it's hard and it's something that I don't want at first. And from there I learn to accept it well, because if we are too fast with giving those perspectives and those solutions, it's almost like we wouldn't validate the pain. And it's and the pain is necessary for this. The pain was your fuel right to to go through the to to make those decisions, to make those shifts.

Abdullah Boulard 00:35:58  And even if I have gone through a grieving process. It doesn't mean the other person I'm talking to will go through the exact same, or has to go through the exact same thing, so everyone is experiencing it differently. We know we don't know the history.

Abdullah Boulard 00:36:13  We don't know if, as you mentioned, if there is anything pending between between our relationship or not.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:36:21  There's no right and wrong in grief. Exactly. And this is important. And this is why I think it would be wrong to pathologist's grief or to say it's something. It's not a disease. Grief. Grief is good grief. Grief is important, and grief is natural. Yeah, although it's not pleasant. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:36:42  Yeah. But grief has also certainly effect on our body. On our. Oh, yeah. On different, very different things. And what can you talk about that.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:36:51  Sure. I mean, what you said in the beginning, you, you you are just frozen. So maybe, you know, your body becomes stiff. maybe you. You are. Your focus is kind of limited. You know, narrow. You. You can't. Some people function, you know, keep functioning, but they stop feeling. Others stop functioning and just feel, you know, but something, it's like there is no balance anymore.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:37:16  You get propelled out of your balance. Right? and also cognitively, maybe you start to ruminate about questions like why and why and what happened and or the guild or no, no or something like that, you know, so you so maybe it's difficult to just think of other things or take care of yourself or others. Right. So everything is like a state of emergency. It feels like a state of emergency, and it is a state of emergency. So all of this, what I'm saying is normal. The brain is just not functioning in a normal way. But this is is the right thing. Yeah, because it's an exceptional state and and. Yeah. And also so physically pain can be something like something very physical. Right. And it comes in waves and, and some sometimes it feels like I can't, I can't do this anymore. And and then we help people to, to yeah. To use the body in order to, navigate the emotions with breathing. Breathing out the pain. Similar to, like, women giving birth.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:38:31  Actually, it's not really different.

Abdullah Boulard 00:38:34  Using the body to your brain.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:38:37  Or also shaking, you know, or grounding yourself when you get lost. But it's mostly actually breathing at the mouth.

Abdullah Boulard 00:38:44  What about tears? You know how? Because many, many don't want to allow the pain, the feeling, the depth of of of a grieving process so we don't allow tears. Maybe because of we are not used to. I mean, in our Western society, as you mentioned before, we are a happy society. We want to show our perfect image, but we are not used to show weaknesses.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:39:12  Right? Or men are not supposed to cry or something like this, or you have to be strong, or crying is a sign of weakness or whatever. You know, in some cultures this is also maybe something, and yeah, crying is important. But you know, I wouldn't say you have to cry and there have to be tears, but there has to be something that, releases the pain and the emotion.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:39:36  For some people, it's crying. but it doesn't come naturally all the time. Not at first, as I. As I told you, it took me a while to cry my first tears about it. And I'm an easy crier. Normally, it's not like I struggle to cry, but in this context. and it's very long. It's like 35 years ago or so. So I can, you know, but I remember how hard it was, but I, I couldn't laugh either. I just, I was frozen in my head and I wondered like, how can people laugh about something? My dad died. You know, so it's like you become suddenly very self-centered. And it would just, Which is okay, you need that. You know, I wouldn't tell people you have to cry, but you need something to deal with your pain. Talk or talk about the pain or do something physical with it. You know, using the body or journaling or drawing. Painting or listening to music and music can be a great kind of catalyst to release emotions.

Abdullah Boulard 00:40:39  There are also differences. Maybe some people cannot cry in front of others. Others, like prefer to do it by themselves. but this is certainly.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:40:51  Also there are different ways of I have worked with a client. She lost her daughter and it was also a very. She was devastated, but she had a hard time to accept that. And she told me in the beginning, I don't want to cry anymore. I have cried all my tears. I have no more tears. And and this kind of crying is like a lonely crying, you know? So when you're crying but there is no one, there is no response to it. Then the crying is not a healing thing anymore.

Abdullah Boulard 00:41:22  What do you mean? There is no response.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:41:24  So if we cry, we cry. The ultimate response is you. Someone is comforting you or consoling you, right? Like if your child falls and hurts the knee and starts to cry, you go, you get there, hey, it's okay. Whatever. I know it hurts, right? Come on.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:41:43  And then it's okay, right? But if the child falls and hurts the knee and cries and no one responds. At some point though that may be the. At first it will cry even louder and harder and will scream. And if still no one responds, the child will stop crying. Yes. So that is what I mean.

Abdullah Boulard 00:42:03  Yeah. They get numb.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:42:04  Yeah. So they they shut down. Yeah. Right. So if there's no response to crying or to this pain, then you just shut down.

Abdullah Boulard 00:42:14  And we still need that when we are adults.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:42:17  Oh, yes. Especially when we grieve, we we we can kind of, contain ourselves in a certain way up to a certain, you know, extent. But we are still social beings. Thanks, God, we are. Yeah. It would be very creepy if we wouldn't need anybody else anymore. Just ChatGPT.

Abdullah Boulard 00:42:41  ChatGPT. But we have also animals. I mean, many, many have a dog or cat or.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:42:46  I remember when I was in grief.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:42:49  that was another loss of breakout. It also can be, you know, cause a lot of grief. I remember that my dog, she she would never enter my bathroom. She wasn't allowed to, but I was in the bathroom crying in the bathroom by myself alone. And the dog was coming to me into the bathroom and, you know, sitting in front of me like, hey, I feel your pain kind of thing, you know? And I remember also when my, when I had to put down my horse, you know, we put the other horses off her group altogether and they grieved, but they had to. The vet told me, like the other horses need to see that she's dying, because otherwise they will wait for her. Yes. And and then they can't grieve. Isn't that interesting? You know. So.

Abdullah Boulard 00:43:35  Absolutely.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:43:36  So we also horses or like animals in general. They need they grieve, but they need something. They need their group, their community. And also they need the realization this.

Abdullah Boulard 00:43:49  Happened I mean, a couple weeks ago, but months we. We lost. We lost our dog. And I grew up with our dogs. I had no attachment to animals or dogs. But through my wife, I learned to connect more with horses and dogs.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:44:11  And she's a great animal lover.

Abdullah Boulard 00:44:13  Yeah, absolutely. You know her and about. Yeah. Exactly. 11 years ago, we got this, dog. Her. Her name was Haya. And and she, of course, in the beginning, all the problems being puppy. But we grow together because she came to life together with my, with my third child and my son. And they are they have exactly the same age. So they grew up together. She was part of the family with whatever came UPS and downs and lows. And one thing you mentioned was also, when I was grieving, she came to me. She she she felt that. Yeah. As well. Yeah. And and, and they had there was a connection.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:45:01  They have this natural instinct to be with you when you are in despair. Yes. Animals have this natural instinct because they are social beings. Dogs and horses. You know, they live in groups and herds and packs.

Abdullah Boulard 00:45:16  And they feel us sometimes more than another human being.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:45:21  Well, yeah, I think every human being feels it. But not every human being has access to what they feel. That's the thing. But the feelings are always there.

Abdullah Boulard 00:45:30  With. With our dog who passed away. Now, we have a second dog. We have we have another one. And, we knew we knew she was going to die so we could prepare. It took. It took weeks, Ex till she then passed away, but we had time to to let go. But we could. We could see that the other dog went calm and and had no appetite anymore. And he was feeling. She is in pain. Yeah, yeah. even after she she she has been gone. He was. He didn't wanted to to be that active.

Abdullah Boulard 00:46:09  He wasn't active anymore. He was very, very, very calm. And, so, yeah, just, animals can be can be very close to to a human as well.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:46:21  No, totally. And they show us actually how how it works, you know, and what is what matters when we grieve. So what you are saying we need to retreat, to withdraw. We get quiet. For example, in India they do fasting when someone dies. You know, also to kind of slow the whole metabolism down to save energy. Really? Yeah. And and and also because it's a ritual. It's an expression of. No, it's not a normal time. It's an exceptional time. And we need to kind of, you know, yeah, we need to praise that or we need to, you know, give us some credits or whatever. You know, we need to take accountability for now. It's time to grieve. And this is why also anniversaries. Also, people should have their rituals and sometimes.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:47:16  And you you know that sometimes we have clients who have gone through severe traumatic grief, losing all the family or children or whatever, and in massive, you know, like fires or whatever, you know, things like that. And then it's extremely difficult, extremely difficult to and it can last years, this process years and it will never be over, maybe. And we should never say like now, but it now it has to be like it was six months or something, you know?

Abdullah Boulard 00:47:46  Yes, I remember this case. I mean, one thing is losing your children and different family members at the at one time, but it also may be even more severe if it's happening at a specific time of the year or a day of of the year, which is repeating, I mean, every day repeats. But but your connection to that feast, for example, if it's Christmas or New Year's Eve or also becomes becomes complicated.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:48:21  Many, as I said, many things, you know also there can be guilt around it or then the whole circumstances, you know, and it's it's really important to give space to all these things and to talk about it and to and to be there and to not try to make it go away,, as I said, but also finding a way.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:48:43  and I remember, for example, this client. She was kind of unable, which I understood to to go to the cemetery or to you look at photos of her family or so because she was so scared of these overwhelming feelings. You know, so she got stuck in the in the process because she it was just too much, you know, and I understand. So we had first we, we we we had to work on this you know like. Yeah navigating through emotions. taking the waves, learning to breathe with it, you know, so that the fear kind of disappears, you know, and that emotions can be something healing and not something, scary and something terrifying.

Abdullah Boulard 00:49:34  As long as you have someone who supports you through the process in this.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:49:38  Yeah. Like that was a clear, you know, like therapeutic. So,

Speaker 3 00:49:43  Yes, I think then.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:49:44  We always, as I said, we always need support. We can't cope with grief all alone. I think it's impossible as social beings, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:49:54  but sometimes we really need, professional help also if trauma is involved. And then we also work with, techniques from trauma therapy and so on.

Abdullah Boulard 00:50:07  Yes. You mentioned now a couple times guilt, if there are unresolved issues, conversations, communication with that person who passed away. But maybe guilt is also by. Yeah. Could I have done something about it? It doesn't have to be just related to the relationship. In my case, for example, I kept remembering regarding my father two weeks before he was complaining of some some pain. So could I have done something? Could I have got him to the doctor? Could I have, could I have?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:50:45  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 00:50:45  Yeah. So. Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:50:48  Yeah. Or why did. Why didn't. Why didn't I stop him from taking the car or things like that. Or why didn't I do something or why wasn't I there? Or. Exactly. So, we like in, in a certain, to a certain extent, it's also normal that we are looking for those answers because we try to control that situation, you know, by looking for these answers, you know? but guilt is something.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:51:14  When, when. Yes. Sometimes there's also, like, a realistic kind of responsibility. You know, I didn't I didn't take care of my child. And then it walked across the street or something, or I didn't. I drove my car and I caused this accident. And like, I had those cases like a few times where people, drove a car and they killed someone in an accident like so. Sometimes we need to deal with a realistic guilt. Like as a yes, you cost something, you know, and we can. But that is also something that we can learn to live with, you know? Guilt itself is also like a social skill. Guilt means like I did something that is socially not acceptable, or that is something that is against my values or morals. So guilt is a necessary concept. But if we stay there, it's a dead end street. Yes. So we need to find a way out of this guilt. How can I take accountability? How can I forgive myself? Making a mistake.

Abdullah Boulard 00:52:20  It's a kind of an a process of being compassionate also.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:52:26  With.

Abdullah Boulard 00:52:26  Yourself, with with others, or feeling this for others. but but also to myself.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:52:35  Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Absolutely. But but in order to get to get out of a guild that is just blocking you or sabotaging you because guild can really eat you up from the inside if you stay there, then you have to be self compassionate. You have to forgive yourself making mistakes maybe. And that is also a long process, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 00:52:56  Oh, how can someone do that?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:52:58  Well, I mean, I have worked with people who killed others or I have been working for with, like those, criminal, violent, you know, criminal or people. That was a phase where I worked with those people and, and yes, people. There are so many people who have to deal with their own, actions in a way, taking responsibilities. But actually, this is also a healing process or. Yeah. like this woman who, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:53:34  kind of didn't see the signs of a of a train rail and went with her car, and her mother was sitting at the passenger seat and got killed by the train. You know, like you have to find a way to deal with this girl. People make mistakes all the time. Or people not even mistakes as a by accident, but also because they, you know, are looking for revenge or they just or they, you know, or they, I don't know. Or how many people kill someone when. Because they drove drunk.

Abdullah Boulard 00:54:08  Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:54:08  You know, or things like that. So this is something we have to deal with. But I think the concept of forgiveness is important here and taking accountability.

Abdullah Boulard 00:54:19  When I think about childhood and and also getting through guilt or difficult relationships, or if someone passes away, I ask myself how? How much has childhood attachment? to do with grief? Or is it different? Intense. Is it a different relationship to that person who passed away? Dependent based on how I grew up and how my attachment was with my parents?

Gita Chaudhuri  00:54:55  Yeah, I think it can.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:54:59  it can have an influence if you have a very. Difficult relationship as an ambivalent or maybe, you know, it was never secure. Maybe a parent was never really reliable or you still, you know, you that was a conflict of relationship later or whatever. You know, it's more difficult to grieve because you have those mixed feelings. Right. And also attachment issues can also contribute like kind of make it harder to go through this, these emotional states, because only through secure attachment we really learn this sense of self and self-regulation and so on. But that doesn't mean that people who didn't have positive or secure attachments cannot go through grief. So it's but it could be related. Yes. but what you're saying is more like the person I had a difficult relationship with passes away. And then does this have an impact? Right.

Abdullah Boulard 00:56:03  Yeah. It's kind of if I have a healthy attachment with, with that person or or if I had, like, a more traumatic experience or more difficult, relationship.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:56:17  Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:56:17  As I said, I think a healthy relationship can, make a healthy process of grieving more probable. Well, it's easier because a complicated relationship can complicate the process of grief.

Abdullah Boulard 00:56:33  I did some research and the risk of death after a loved one, a close loved one, after a long period of time. if they pass away within three months, the risk increases of 66% of the partner to die of a broken heart syndrome. So-called. What what's your opinion about that. And and have you had any experience around that.

Speaker 3 00:57:02  Yeah I think that has.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:57:03  To do with this. You know, these couples, for example, who really spend a lot of time together in their life and like really having this kind of symbiotic relationship or attachment where they almost synchronize also physically with each other, you know. And there is some research about it that or even, you know, sometimes like twins. They are good friends. They have their menstruation after a while at the same time, you know. So those long term couples, they sometimes really, attach with each other and synchronize also on a physical level.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:57:41  But maybe even more interesting is also on an emotional level. They, you know, they mean the world to each other literally. So when one of them passes away, it could be that for the other one, like the life force just kind of disappears with the death of the loved one. And there is no more meaning or, you know, like life will left and then, you know, it could mean like it's just like giving up or following. You know, and also, even if it's not happening, I have seen it very often that, at least the longing to follow or to die as well is very strong.

Abdullah Boulard 00:58:27  Sometimes because they lose, they lose the their life force, their right.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:58:36  Like all the meaning and they don't know how to move on. But but then of course in therapy we can work on this, you know, so it doesn't have to happen, you know. But but the thing is, it can happen very often. It depends also on the age, you know, I think, but I'm not sure about the statistics, but, if I remember right, I think it's more often the men that follow the women instead of the other way round.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:59:04  So it seems like men are less capable to, to stay behind on their own.

Abdullah Boulard 00:59:11  We cannot live without women. It was the same also with my grandparents. when my grandmother passed away, my grandfather followed her. Within the first three months. So he.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:59:27  And what was the cause of his death? Like the heart.

Abdullah Boulard 00:59:30  I mean, at that time, I don't I don't remember what the situation was, but I knew he. He passed away just shortly after. Yeah. And I've heard about the same, same situation with a friend of mine who lost his mother recently. And his father passed away a short after. Yeah. So it is a phenomenon which is obviously out there and happening.

Gita Chaudhuri  00:59:54  It is, but it's also part of it's again, also, I think, a cultural thing because, for example, in the Western culture, elderly people, they are very often pretty much on their own. They lose touch with their families, with their younger people. That is not necessarily the case in other cultures.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:00:14  And and then when their partner dies, they are completely on their own. And it's like if you leave some, like someone completely in the desert on their own, they will die, you know? And I think it's it has to do with this. But if they have more support, if they have still children or family members around or social network friends, this phenomena doesn't happen so often, you know. I don't know how it was with your grandfather.

Abdullah Boulard 01:00:44  I mean, they had a big family.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:00:46  Oh.

Abdullah Boulard 01:00:47  They had a big family, eight children. And I don't I don't know how many grandchildren.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:00:54  And they were all in touch.

Abdullah Boulard 01:00:55  They were very close and in touch and every day with him. But still, somehow the pain was maybe too big or whatever this is. But this, this, this, this statistics gives me and tells me that we need to be careful, specifically after a loved one passes away, how we deal with our emotions that we need to seek help and support.

Abdullah Boulard 01:01:21  even more.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:01:22  Yes. I think we need. We need. Exactly. We need that community that we spoke about before. You know, we need a I mean, even if there's people around, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a it's an appropriate support. but also we need other meanings in life than just one person. You know, also, already during lifetime, we should make sure that, you know, our life does not rely on our partner only.

Abdullah Boulard 01:01:53  Another thing I, I've observed with some people who were close to, a person who passed away, they they cannot let go anymore. It's kind of they are addicted to the grieving process itself.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:02:09  Yes, that can be right. Addicted? Maybe not, but. Yeah, but it's like a more like an obsession or so you know, as I mentioned earlier, the focus, like, of, the cognitive mind can become very narrow, you know, and maybe it starts with ruminating and, you know, thinking all the time about the last one.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:02:34  And then it's it's more and more difficult to think of other things as well. You know, so the the focus becomes more and more narrow. that can happen. And then it feels like, nothing else matters anymore, right? And nothing is important anymore. And that is something that we can also deal with in therapy, you know. it is it is an example of getting stuck in the process of grieving.

Abdullah Boulard 01:03:05  We talked about sudden versus, slow death. is there any specifics? Are there any specifics how to deal with or what is the effect on us if something is sudden versus if we can let go slowly?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:03:25  If it's sudden, there is no way for us to get prepared. I mean, we can never really prepare for a loss because we will never really feel how we know how it will feel. but we can maybe, you know, come to terms with the person. We can talk about things, we can solve remaining conflicts, you know, we can be there. We can take care of this person.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:03:50  So there is this sense of self-efficacy. There is a sense of I can there's something I can do. Whereas with a sudden death that very often lags and it comes as a, as a shock, you know, as you mentioned also, you were in shock when your father died was unexpected. It came out of the blue. It just hit you from above. Right. And and that is a very. But my father died in the same way very suddenly, and from one second to the other it was an aneurysm in the, in the brain, a stem. And, and actually, after a while, we, we comforted ourselves. Me and my sibling and my mother, like, he didn't have to suffer, you know, he didn't have to go through the long process of suffering with a slow death and so on. And that helped us to to cope with this unexpected, event. but in the beginning, it was really hard because it's just like, as I said, it just completely propels you out of your normal life.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:04:56  There is no way for you to at first to, to adapt to this new situation, but a slow death with a lot of suffering and a lot of, you know, like, painful processes of disease. And so it can also be traumatic. It depends. It depends on how it goes. If you know, for example, if a parent has to be with a child that has cancer, or so you know, I remember a client whose son died when he was nine years old due to cancer, and it was so amazing this mother could really find realization and acceptance and this new relationship relationship because the son always said like, don't worry, mom, I'll be fine. You know, and this is something that that is not always the case. But in this case, you know, she had the chance to to start the coping process, while the child was still there, you know, together with the child. And that can be something very helpful. But other parents, maybe, like, you know, for others, it's very difficult to deal with the fact that their children are suffering at all, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:06:15  And so it depends again, but I think in general, we could say a sudden death is more likely to be traumatic.

Abdullah Boulard 01:06:24  On the other side, when something is slow, if I think about, okay, a terminal in illness or this is taking still a longer period of time, but you know, and you have pain and you suffer and you can do less and less with your body or your mind or even dementia. Alzheimer's, if you lose a person mentally is not there anymore. For you, it's not the same person anymore. It's also kind of slow death, if I think about it.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:06:56  Yeah. That's true. Like dementia is a it's a process of, yeah, it's a mental death. Right? It's very difficult. The person disappears and the body is still there kind of thing. Nothing. Right? And it's so interesting because if a person doesn't have any memories at all, what makes this person still be a person? Right. And, and if they don't recognize anybody and so on.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:07:25  So that is then you have to go through the grief, even if the person is still physically alive, you know? on the other hand, if it's the other way around. Like with my father, he was also in coma for two weeks, so he was completely gone. But the body was still there, you know, and and it was also some kind of, like, really abstract. Is he dead or alive? The body is there, but just kind of staying alive through all these machines and stuff. And we kept staring at the machines because, you know, and the body was so lifeless in a way. So it's death is also a very abstract thing and very difficult for us to understand with our rational mind, and that makes it also so hard and difficult to to accept. You know, it's so difficult for us to understand what that death is. And what comes after death. And we know that people who have beliefs or religion or who have a spiritual kind of, you know, idea about what happens with someone after death makes the process of grief sometimes also easier.

Abdullah Boulard 01:08:36  If someone has a terminal illness or illness and and suffering through pain, some some people, they don't want to live anymore also by themselves. it's also something difficult to deal with as, as as a child or as a loved one. so how how can we deal with, like, if someone wants to be self-determined, to live or to die?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:09:05  Yeah, well, I think it depends again on the circumstances and so many factors. But if someone is suffering and very much in pain and has a terminal illness like ALS or cancer or whatever, and they really don't and they decide they don't want if they want to end the suffering, you know, and it's and then, you know, you as a family or as partners, you can talk about this. I think that can be a good thing. you know, and it makes, death maybe something more like a relief instead of a, just a painful end of something, you know? so I think that could be. That is that can be a good thing, then you you, don't feel so powerless and helpless towards death anymore.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:09:59  If you if you are self-determined. But on the other hand, if someone commits suicide as a violent act, that is a completely different thing that causes so much pain. And also like, because it's almost like, an aggressive act towards the people who stay alive, you know, stay behind because, they decide to leave. It's like almost, you know, I leave you, I break up with you and I it's a it's something.

Abdullah Boulard 01:10:38  That I don't care about you.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:10:39  I just somehow I don't care about you, I don't mind, I, I like yes, many people think it's a selfish act, you know, and they feel like rejected by, by this kind of act and they feel dismissed or whatever. Yeah. It's a, it's a so if it's violent and the more violent it is, the more difficult it is to, to accept and to to cope with.

Abdullah Boulard 01:11:06  I read some statistics and it's about every 40s someone dies through suicide.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:11:13  It's alarming. Although more and more young people.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:11:16  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 01:11:17  Yes, it's the fourth the in the ranking people of dying. It's the number for, for between the age of 15 and 30.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:11:29  As a cause of.

Abdullah Boulard 01:11:30  Death. As a cause of death.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:11:32  Yeah, it's really alarming.

Abdullah Boulard 01:11:34  And it's been increasing over the last decades.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:11:38  Yeah, it is. And that's a whole different conversation. I think, you know, why? this happens more and more and why people decide to end their life. Or maybe it's not even almost always a clear decision, but an impulsive act, you know, but the, regarding grief, it's, massive for the ones who stay. We had the parents or, you know, the families. as I say, suicide is, is a violent act. but it's also it's an act that affects the relationship very much. You feel like, I'm not important, I don't care. This person didn't think of me as. Or sometimes even they want to punish me. They did it because of me. Or so you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:12:27  When someone, for example, I had this client whose boyfriend committed suicide after she broke up, you know. So then, of course, you feel guilty, and it's like a it's almost like a, like a silent revenge or something like a silent punishment. So yeah. So this can also be very traumatic and can complicate the process of grieving in the first place. But again, in therapy we can, we can we try to find, you know, answers what happened. And we are really, you know, trying to explore the circumstances at first. And then we try to work with the recording emotions and help navigating through it. And, and this will help, finding realization, acceptance and a new quality of relationship, to this person.

Abdullah Boulard 01:13:24  Yes. It's it's a big a big topic and it's increasing. We know that. just also to understand, for those who grieve from people after suicide, it's about think it's about 1,995% have a mental health issue, have a mental health program. So that's why it's so important to talk about about what we talk and this conversations.

Abdullah Boulard 01:13:51  it's the depression. It's the bipolar. It's the anxieties. It's whatever the lack of emotional regulation or the lack of purpose and and so on. We we never we can never know what causes someone to make such a step, but, we can get them professional help.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:14:13  yeah. I mean, committing suicide, someone has to be in some kind of dissociated state in order to do this. And this is also what we explain to people, you know, who say behind. Well, how could they do this? you know, they didn't even care about me. And, and then we explained that in those moments, they couldn't think about the others, you know, they were completely dissociated from all the other things in life, you know, and this is how they could commit this, suicide. Yeah. So it's a dissociative state, mostly caused by some mental issues or, I mean, okay, there are these rare cases also where people just really strategically decide to commit suicide because there's no other way out.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:14:59  Like politicians sometimes or whatever, you know, like, yeah, that is because I don't have anything else in life that matters except that company. And when it's bankrupt, they commit suicide or they lose their like a war, so they commit suicide, they lose a power fight, you know, and, they commit suicide. So it has always to do with some kind of narrow minded focus on one special thing.

Abdullah Boulard 01:15:25  One one special thing, how they see themselves, maybe.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:15:29  Yes, how they define themselves.

Abdullah Boulard 01:15:30  And what they want to be seen for. Oh, yes. I've, I've, I've had some, experience like of France where the parents committed to suicide and, and it was because and the reason I remember was like this person was not able to be physically able to live a normal life anymore? Yeah. Like, But also, he was he was okay as an elderly person. Yeah. But he did not feel in his strengths, and, Yeah. And and body image.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:16:10  Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:16:11  Correct. So, for example, I, I had a client whose mother committed suicide because when she was younger, she was a beautiful woman, a model. You know, she was known for her beauty and so on. When she and she couldn't cope with getting older and she got depressed, and she just defined her whole, you know, self and her identity through her beauty and her youth, you know, and then, of course, she didn't have any other reason to, to stay left, which was pretty sad, you know. and others, they have an accident. They get, you know, maybe they end up in a wheelchair or whatever, and they know how to find new meanings in their lives. You know, so it depends on, you know, and again, in therapy, we can guide people through a process of finding new meanings, even because the loss of youth, the loss of your beauty, the loss of your company, the loss of your power. This is again, these are suicide is very often, an abruptly ended process of grief where people became stuck in, you know, they don't know any exit, so they exit that way.

Abdullah Boulard 01:17:30  What if someone expresses suicidal thoughts to to a loved one? that's also difficult to deal with. yeah. It's, you know, someone doesn't want to live anymore. So how to get them help, how to react on that?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:17:46  Like the the the one who expresses us or the one who hears it?

Abdullah Boulard 01:17:51  The one who hears it, because they will at the end. If some if this person would commit suicide, they have to deal with this consequences.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:18:00  Of course. No, I think I would always look for support. And also. But also I think it's important, you know, like finding support for the one who expresses suicidal thoughts, you know. But yes, you're right. Also as a family member or a partner, or relative of of a suicidal person, you need some kind of support. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 01:18:24  You mentioned like cultures. We we expressed about the Indian and the Lebanese culture. The Western culture. there are rituals. We we know the importance of rituals, and we. But society is also changing.

Abdullah Boulard 01:18:42  We lose. We lose rituals in our cultural, religious, religious, spiritual way where we in the past we could find like, okay, if something happens, this is this is these are the steps I go through. This is not available anymore. for, for for most people, how what type of rituals would you, would you, would you put together from the best, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:19:15  Well, I mean, I'm not providing any, you know, like, kind of program of rituals or something, but I would actually, I would work with my clients on, you know, like them creating their personal rituals that make sense to them, you know, but we can sometimes, like, it's just about finding a way to get in or to stay in touch with the ones who passed away, looking at photographs, going through old belongings, you know, finding a way. Like finding a spot in the house where, you know they have their space so that you can go there and get in touch and grieve.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:19:56  But also you can withdraw from this or retreat from this spot and go somewhere else. You know, so these things, for example, make sense, or having anniversaries or, you know, coming together, you know, like having memorials or things like that, you know, because memories, keep the, person alive in a way. Right. the energy, I really think, like energy. And it I don't just think that I know it it's a physical thing, you know, like a, That energy cannot disappear, cannot go away. It stays. But energy flows where retention goes. So if we pay attention to something or someone, it is there, you know, and and I think it's important, but it can't be there constantly. So we need to structure that. we need to structure. How much space will it have in my life and in the in the beginning of a process of grief, it will be certainly more. And then it. You know, we have to grow our life around it again, slowly but surely, so that we also learn to go back to other things in life, go back to work, go back to other people we love, to our friends, and so on.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:21:16  Starting to enjoy life again. So I think it's important to find rituals to to stay in touch with the deceased and to to be able to build a new, as I said, new spiritual internal relationship. But also there are other rituals that are important to express the pain and the love and the grief. You know, like as I said, music, singing these things, you know, in modern societies. Western societies is maybe also, you know, going to grief support groups or something like this, you know, but also there are so many ways, like having a grave, you know, having a, or having a spot, you know, where you can go and where you can cry or where you can bring flowers. You know, all these gestures are important.

Abdullah Boulard 01:22:12  You would still see that as an important fact to have a grave and not.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:22:16  Well it depends. I, for example, I never needed my grave for me to grieve my father's death, but I. But I had a spot in my house, you know, with some, you know, some flowers.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:22:27  And the thing, you know, I had this because the grave was also in a different country where I lived. So. So I found that way in some cultures. In India, for example, they don't have any graves because they burn the bodies, the corpse, you know. So it depends. But you need something, but they, they, they have little avatars then with photographs and stuff, you know. So you need something. It doesn't have to be a grave, but it has to be something.

Abdullah Boulard 01:22:52  Something you can get back to. It could be a picture somewhere. And that's purely to go to.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:22:57  Or a stone or a tree or a place in, in your garden or. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 01:23:03  How can we cope with with really deep grief? when it comes to reputedly relevant and what type of therapies would you, would you do in your practice?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:23:17  Grief is, having go having to go through intense emotions and very mixed emotions. So and if it's therapeutically relevant, then it's mostly because people don't know how to navigate these emotions.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:23:35  And then it's also very often because the circumstances around the death are somehow traumatic, you know, so it has a lot to do with trauma therapy. The classical thing, like working through trauma, you know, first stabilization, emotional regulation, but then also, you know, like maybe working with with working with the body very much, but also then finding ways to resolve or clarify complicated relationships. Right. Or things like guilt, what we mentioned earlier or, ambivalence us, you know, conflicts. So we work through this and and then also helping to find new meanings. That is helping to give a perspective at some point, you know, a life, a new life with a new relationship to the deceased one.

Abdullah Boulard 01:24:38  So this is the way if someone would want to work individually with a therapist, but there are also group group work retreats and other possible services out there.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:24:54  Yes, I think groups and retreats can be really good for kind of moderate, grief processes, because if it's traumatic and severe, it can be complicated also because, for example, one person lost their child and the other person lost their mother, and then suddenly they start to, you know, feel like, okay, you know, my thing is like so more, so much more difficult than you're saying.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:25:24  And then it's becoming complicated. You know, so we could say this the more severe and traumatic a loss is, the less appropriate is a group and retreats and so on, at least in the early stages. But still also, you know, for example, there are so many self-help groups for parents who lost their children due to overdoses of drugs, or self-help groups of parents who lost their children due to cancer or self-help, you know, so then that makes sense. Then, you know, if it's kind of covering more or less the same topic, you know? But the downside could always be like people start to compare, but the sharing is something very valuable, sharing with others who go through a similar process, you know, because then you you feel you're not alone with that. You're not the only one, and you can feel a different quality of empathy sometimes.

Abdullah Boulard 01:26:22  Is there something which should be avoided? What doesn't help?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:26:26  Yes, maybe everything that just helps in the short term. Like, you know, short term distractions, drugs, alcohol, you know, like just overworking all these kind of things that have short term, relief.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:26:44  I could I would not recommend, but in the beginning of a of a grief process, as I said, maybe everything is okay at first, you know, but then we, then it should be like it should be in the first phase, but not like ongoing prolonging.

Abdullah Boulard 01:27:04  And after what period would it make sense to start, let's say with a, with therapy, you know, because the first phase is maybe, a normal grieving process. When would you suggest for someone to start with treatment?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:27:20  Yeah, I would say like in the first, like, like 6 to 9 months. grief support or grief counseling is more appropriate because anything that has to do with the grief could still be like kind of non-clinical, you know, but after a certain amount of time, like, 6 to 9 months, maybe, we can see whether a process is being stuck or, or blocked and then therapy would maybe make sense. But it's also it depends. You know, sometimes therapy can make sense on a much on a, on a much earlier time because it was severely traumatic or something.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:28:02  And then we have trauma as always. First, before we can work on grief, we have to work on the trauma because trauma blocks the grief, not the other way round.

Abdullah Boulard 01:28:14  And trauma, again, as we know, is very individual. It's it's our own response to, to to the circumstance or to what happened.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:28:24  Yeah. We say trauma is not the event. Trauma is the response, the possible response to the event. But of course, you know, like, how can you respond to something violent, massive? Sudden? you know, and or if you, you know that, then it's, you know, it's just it will be traumatic for most of the people. Let's put it that way.

Abdullah Boulard 01:28:49  If I go back to the to the question or to to the point of religion and spirituality in that in the context of grief, is it easier for someone who is more, religious compared to someone these days, with, with less spiritual or religious, attachment?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:29:13  I think, yes.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:29:14  If you have some values regarding, you know, a religion or spirituality, as in, you know, there is a meaning to life and there's also a meaning to death, and there is maybe a life after death, or these things can make it easier for people to come to terms with death, you know, and to to find acceptance. It can be a great and profound support to have some kind of belief. And if and if you are very nihilistic, let's say it's difficult then to, you know, to to know why, to go through all this pain, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 01:29:58  Where this person, where this energy or whatever we are, is right now. So believing.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:30:05  That it's.

Abdullah Boulard 01:30:05  Just heaven, is is a positive thing.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:30:10  So for example.

Abdullah Boulard 01:30:11  It can be.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:30:12  For example, heaven or, you know, like the reincarnation or we all go back to the big oneness or whatever, you know. Yeah. it can be, it can be something very comforting to believe in something like this or like for children, you know, like they, they sometimes when they lose parents or loved ones, they, you know, they picture them or imagine them as angels and, and that really had some like this.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:30:42  They stay in touch, you know, and it's easier for them to imagine those things because they don't have all these rational filters. And so it, it, it helps. we we also work a lot with imaginative techniques and, therapy and traumatic grief processes, to find, you know, to not just to find a new relationship to the decision, but also in order to, you know, like, cope with these very physical reactions, like the pain in the heart. You mentioned the broken heart syndrome. So pain can really affect the heart. It is like a you have a Contraction in the chest or something. Or in the stomach? You know, it feels like I can't. I can't, cope with it anymore. And using imaginations can help, you know? Okay, this is what I feel here is, you know, now he's present. He's there, or the person is here now, and I give I give them a space or something like this. Yeah. So we actually use the intensity, you know, in order to we reframe it and, and we find this, except.

Abdullah Boulard 01:32:02  There is also this, we give signs and symbols to, to something happening around us, like this bird now standing out of my window could be, the energy of, or or this flower or so how how important is this concept of giving signs and, to what's around us.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:32:29  I think it can be important for people, you know, like. And mostly when people are in grief, they are very sensitive, much more sensitive than what? Like when they're not in this exceptional state. And, so maybe they are also more open for those signs, you know. As a therapist, I'm completely, completely neutral regarding those, ideas about, you know, what the meaning of those signs or whatever. I would never tell someone it's no, that doesn't exist, and I would never tell someone. Yeah, you have to believe in something like this. You know, I think it's it's a very individual thing. And of course, there is no scientific proof that this can really happen. But I wouldn't also completely, ignore it or deny it, you know, because we cannot know.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:33:28  We just don't know enough about consciousness. And I think consciousness is something that has not been understood really. So consciousness can also appear in very like amazing ways. So yeah, I don't have any opinion about it, but I'm open for concepts of people. but I would also always, have in mind that if you become too narrow, too obsessed with those concept, and it can also be something that blocks you, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 01:34:06  How and what do you think about life after death? Is there a life after death?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:34:13  Well, okay, I tell you now, because I know, I know, of course, the same thing. I don't know, of course, but I want to believe it. Yes. I don't know if it's life after death and certainly not the life you know that we know, but some kind of existence. You know, as I said, because I believe as energy cannot disappear. and as you will be said there, and we are more than our brain and our body.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:34:44  We are more than that. We have this consciousness of what will happen to our consciousness. We don't know. I don't know either, but I think it won't just disappear. It will. It will go somewhere. It will have a new way to be. Yeah. so it's a it's a very interesting question. but I'm not like, I'm not this very kind of, scientific, kind of physical oriented person. Like, I only believe what I see or something, you know? And this is also a little bit like old fashioned, I must say, because modern science knows that there is so much more than what we can see or prove scientifically.

Abdullah Boulard 01:35:27  Yes, I, I agree, and, when when I think about it, you mentioned energy cannot be destroyed. I, I would say nothing can be created or destroyed. Yeah. Because it's only available. What is, can only transform it's form and way and possibilities. And I compare it in a if, if, if you look at a boiling, boiling water and let's, let's assume this is what exists out there in life or whatever.

Abdullah Boulard 01:36:04  And we the boiling water brings like these little bubbles. And every life is a little bubble just in a slower way, maybe an hour pass of way, and we dissolve back into the boiling water. Into what? What is.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:36:21  Yeah. I mean, there are so many nice kind of analogies. Like, for example, you know, existence is the big ocean, like a big ocean. And lives are the drops, you know, of a wave or something and a drop and a wave comes and goes, you know, but you can only the wave only exists for a moment, but then it's back in the big ocean and it doesn't exist anymore. It's dissolved with the big ocean, you know. So seeing it that way makes some sense for me. and it helps me also to be less attached with physical, you know, things and life itself. I'm not scared of death. I mean, maybe of the process of dying sometimes. And I don't want to die now because I feel like I, you know, my kids would be devastated and things like that, you know, so I, I am, in a way, of course, attached life, but not too much, you know, because I think like.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:37:21  Well, it will somehow. It's just a face, you know, and it's okay to go through this face, but it's also okay if it ends. And that's part of the whole thing.

Abdullah Boulard 01:37:31  That's part of the whole process and the experience at the end. At the end, it's it's about the experience. We we gain what we do in this life.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:37:41  And I really trust in that. And I mean, I have lost my, my father other than that, I didn't go to any like real deep grief. Not not because I never lost any other close person. Close enough person, that's all that I really had to go through some grief. But I know I'm vulnerable here, you know? And this can always happen, that I lose someone that I really love. But I somehow trust that I will find a way through. Yes, but I can't be alone now.

Abdullah Boulard 01:38:13  And there is a saying in my Cultural background. Every person who lived never dies because it influences something. It influences others with their feelings, with their emotions, with their experiences, and certainly through through bursts of children and and and others.

Abdullah Boulard 01:38:37  And this gives me also. Yeah, we we live, we surpass our lives with what we create. We create this podcast. Maybe we create this someone thinking about us or we we improve someone's life, or we affect someone's life or each other. And this is what's, what's what's beautiful. And this will surpass maybe not us as a human being today, but this is what we will affect, human society.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:39:10  Definitely. And even if we don't, you know, achieve big things and, you know, like, my company will always exist on my name or what? Everyone will remember me. But it's like, yes, I think every life matters and every life has a meaning. And even if it's very short and even if you know and and it's and it's just a beautiful thing, you know. Yeah. It's true.

Abdullah Boulard 01:39:35  What would you tell someone who is in a grieving process? Is there anything specific you would like to share with them?

Gita Chaudhuri  01:39:44  that is difficult to answer, actually, because it depends on which will stage and which kind of process this person would be, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:39:52  So I don't have any standard, sentence to say or so. no, that's difficult. But, yeah, I think I would like to share this, this trust that I just expressed, you know, the trust that it's something that we can go through and that is, that it can be a transformative, a Process and and that is can bring us somewhere but that sometimes it can also, be a long process and a difficult process, but it's possible to get through it. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 01:40:31  This topic was very close to me. And, and I, I was looking forward to this conversation also because that's that's something really touching everyone, and sooner or later in our lives and, and I think it's important to show to, to, to the people out there that there is a way out, as you just said it, correctly, there is a not a way out, I think a way through. And it's, it's a, it's a luggage we have and it's something which, would shape us and and for the better.

Abdullah Boulard 01:41:09  Thank you, Geetha, for being here.

Gita Chaudhuri  01:41:11  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Abdullah Boulard 01:41:13  Thank you very much.