Overcome Addiction Shame & Stigma: How to Thrive in Recovery and Prevent Relapse

In this deeply honest episode, Jacobo Cavestany, Relapse Prevention Therapist at The Balance, shares his personal journey through addiction, grief, and recovery. He speaks about the shame of hiding his struggles, the impact of losing his sister, and the spiral into depression that followed.

Jacobo opens up about what it really means to hit rock bottom—manipulation, relapse, and suicidal thoughts—while also reflecting on the moments that helped him begin to heal: therapy, trust, and learning to face emotions rather than escape them.

Today, as a practitioner, Jacobo transforms his lived experience into guidance for others. He explains why empathy, honesty, and individualized recovery are at the heart of his work, and what long-term healing really looks like: imperfect, non-linear, but deeply human.

🔗🔗 Tune in for an unfiltered conversation about addiction, loss, and recovery—and the strength it takes to start again.

About Jacobo: Having walked the path of addiction and recovery himself, Jacobo brings a unique blend of lived experience and therapeutic expertise to his work. He understands the complexity of relapse, the weight of shame, and the courage it takes to heal. Through empathy and authenticity, he helps others find their own way forward.

For further mental health information and support, visit The Balance RehabClinic website: https://balancerehabclinic.com/

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Chapters

• 0:00 Early Addiction & Shame
• 2:06 Hiding Addiction & Family Discovery
• 4:52 Gambling, Confession & Sister’s Suicide
• 6:07 Grief, Depression & Emotional Collapse
• 8:35 Tools for Coping with Depression
• 9:13 First Addictions, Emotional Avoidance & Early Exposure
• 10:50 Childhood, Genetics & Environment
• 12:05 Behavioral vs. Substance Addiction
• 14:04 Losing Control & Emotional Numbing
• 19:15 Stealing, Manipulation & Rock Bottom
• 22:58 Substance Use & Suicidal Thoughts
• 24:00 Bullying, Isolation & Social Challenges
• 25:38 Rehab, Resistance & Starting Recovery
• 28:43 Time, Motivation & Individualized Recovery
• 32:43 Addiction as the Only Light Left
• 34:04 Relapse, Guilt & Learning Through Failure
• 38:13 Trust, Therapy & Emotional Healing
• 41:05 Emotional Education, Honesty & Technology’s Impact
• 44:11 Storytelling, Empathy & Sister’s Memory
• 51:58 Processing Loss & Unanswered Questions
• 53:22 From Patient to Practitioner: Why He Now Helps Others
• 57:13 Therapy Models & Building Trust with Clients
• 1:08:17 Preparing for Life After Rehab
• 1:13:42 Substituting Addictions & What Recovery Really Means
• 1:25:32 Long-Term Recovery & Final Advice

Transcript

Jacobo Cavestany 00:00:00  When I was young, very young, I started using dramatically.

Abdullah Boulad 00:00:04  What was the first thing you you got tracked into? Was it the gambling and sex addiction?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:00:10  The reality. The first thing if I do memory of myself was pornography. So sex addiction. I was very, very ashamed of myself. I'm still not proud now of what I did. Some of the things were very, undignified. But I accept them. Now. I'm here. This is what I have. This is my reality. This is where I have to start working. And that healed me. So I think it heals everyone. Finally, what I came to understand. And it's still struggle because I still struggle with this particular thing in my life, is that you react the way you can't. And I just reacted the way I could at the time.

Abdullah Boulad 00:00:53  Welcome to the Living Alive and Balanced podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Jacopo Rengifo, a behavioral addiction specialist and relapse prevention expert whose journey began with his own personal recovery.

Abdullah Boulad 00:01:11  In this episode, Jacopo opens up about his story from growing up across countries to the loss of his sister and the years navigating addiction and resistance to treatment. We explore what we cover truly looks like and how Jacobo rebuilt his life from the inside out. He shares unique insights into the dopamine system, the signs of relapse, and some of the most common misconceptions about addiction, including why it's not about quantity, but about your relationship to the substance or behavior. This is an honest conversation about what it takes to return to yourself, and how change becomes possible when we start facing the truth and trust those around us. I hope you will enjoy. Jacobo. What motivated you to do what you do today?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:02:06  Well, it's been a long story. It's been several years already where I started doing what I do now, but it all comes from from my personal story, from where I was and what I had to do to be in a different place when I was a young, very young. I started using, dramatically.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:02:29  It was a situation that was very difficult because I had to hide it from from my family, from everyone that was around me. So I was alone. I was alone in a dramatic situation I didn't know how to handle and using and using, and it started to cover every aspect of my life. I didn't want to seek for help. I didn't know how to seek for help. I really didn't know what was happening with me. I thought I was cursed or something like that. And, well, finally the situation developed and, and there was no place to hide anymore because, of course, my family, my mother was starting to to see that I was in a very bad shape, and I wasn't able to do many of the things that, well, ordinary people maybe can do during the day will wake up, do your bed, go to university, college or wherever you have to go work. And that was just, I was incapable of doing that. So they they came to me and they said, we we we know you have a problem.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:03:42  we don't know exactly what it was, what it is. But we feel you need to reach us. I wasn't able at the time to reach them. I It took another 2 or 3 years where I started doing things like taking family money to. To use to gamble. That was my main addiction gambling, a very behavioral addiction as well as sex. I also used other things. But when I look back in in where I was, I think that's the most traumatic, things I did. Were related to gambling. So money started to drown and they started to see because money is not infinite. And, well, there was a moment where they, they were between going to the police to see where the scam was or me stepping up and saying, this is me that's gambling. It's not a scam. It's not that you're being robbed, it's that your own son is using the family money to to gamble.

Abdullah Boulad 00:04:47  How old have you been? when everything has started.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:04:52  you know, there's a bit of a blur.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:04:54  I know I was between 16 and 17.

Abdullah Boulad 00:04:56  Wow.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:04:57  It was very young. It was my end. End of, high school. That's when I started. Then I had a huge trigger that just made the things go faster and faster and were and were worst and worst. And it was, my sister that she committed suicide when I was graduating the same day I graduated from from school. and then the next five years, I was just, using and gambling and in very bad places all the time. There wasn't there wasn't a time where I thought, well, maybe I can have a normal life. I knew it was. It wasn't going to happen. I knew the problem I had. I just didn't want to recognize it or didn't know how to do to do so.

Abdullah Boulad 00:05:47  I'm very sorry to hear about your sister. there?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:05:51  like.

Abdullah Boulad 00:05:53  Was this for you a catalyst to get better, or did you drag you down further in in your situation?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:06:07  In my personal situation, it dragged me down completely.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:06:11  I wasn't able to do the griefing at the time. I wasn't able to accept the reality that, well, that we were in, and everyone in my family had different ways to cope with it. my addiction was already started. It doesn't mean that the situation I reacted to it, but I was already in addiction and active addiction and, this just was a catalyst to finish myself in, in not finding anything else to do. So addiction was present. I don't say 24 hours because it would be a bit exaggerated, but in most of the decisions and the things I did, it was present for the next five years.

Abdullah Boulad 00:06:57  Was the addiction the main issue you had, or was there something underlying to it there?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:07:05  Finally, when you when you recover, you see if there's something else. No, that's the the huge thing to it. I was in a very depressive state as well. So depression was a big thing. I couldn't wake up. I was always sleeping. I even slept in in college classes inside the class with 40 or 50 people.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:07:26  And I was there sleeping. So, you know, I was so grown up. I was an adult going to college, but I wasn't able to follow a class entirely. So yes, there was a depression. Underline the depression that hasn't disappeared completely after recovering from addiction. So every three, four, four years I have a little episode of maybe 3 or 4 weeks that I have to take care of myself a lot. I have to slow down a bit because it's, it's a cycle, depression. That's what, psychiatrist told me once. And I think because if you see the timeline, every four years, more or less, I have an episode of. It's not that heavy as before, because when you're in active addiction, everything is much more in general. But I do have to control that. And I think it would be maybe there be there for for the rest of my life, I don't know, we hope not. But we we never know.

Abdullah Boulad 00:08:27  You can observe and you, you realize what it is and you can you can address it or you can take it slower to to cope with it.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:08:35  It's much different when you have the tools. Everything in mental health for me is different if you have some tools to take care of it. So of course it's not a month or 1520 days that I have that I'm in good shape. So it's better not to do many things. But I know where I am. I know what I have to do, I do it, it goes pretty fast and, and then I can go on with my life.

Abdullah Boulad 00:09:01  When, when we go back when you were like the 1617. So where everything has started for you. What was the first thing you you got dragged into? Was it the gambling and, sex addiction?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:09:13  The the reality. The first thing if I do memory of myself was pornography. So sex addiction. because that started with 11 years, I think, I found myself in situations that it's difficult now to remember it because it's been a while, but, but in situations when I couldn't stop, I went out of school, I took my computer and I started watching pornography and doing whatever I had to do.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:09:43  A and I couldn't stop. And I even found myself in situations where, where there was even people around me and I had to look at the computer compulsively because that was a way to avoid my own emotions. And that's the first, catalyst I found, when I was only 11 years. I was very emotional. I, I've been always very emotional person. And yeah. And that's where well teenage starts, you start to see reality that you're just another person, another number. Emotions come in, the limbic system comes in and you don't know how to manage it. And that's normally if you do a very big history in addicts, they normally start when they're quite young, quite younger than what they think afterwards.

Abdullah Boulad 00:10:36  Often we, we hear that the childhood is also a very significant when it comes to addiction or later on any behavioral issues. How was it in your case was how did you grow up?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:10:50  I grew up in a very safe family, a very loving family. I had, well, my father is a diplomat.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:10:57  So we went all around the world living in Ivory Coast, Morocco, where I was born in the States. And, and we had almost everything. No, no real issues. of course I had a father. I have a father now. We have a really good relationship. But he's he was strict, severe, very demanding. And it's true that there's a lot of studies that prove that childhood is something very related to to addiction. I also think that genes are involved. So I come from a family that has a lot of addiction. So my thought about it is that whatever happened in my life, I was going to to end up with this problem, even if the circumstances had changed. I have a strong genetic bias that drives me to addiction. So I have a lot of, uncles, cousins that have this problem, and I deal with it the way they can.

Abdullah Boulad 00:12:05  And the addiction can manifest in different ways, like on a behavioral side or going into substance. Is there a difference between behavioral addiction side and and the substance addiction and what it makes to to your brain or to your emotions.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:12:25  To the brain, of course. Like, there's a total difference of every every drug triggers in a different way. What neuroscientists have seen I'm not an expert in this, but they've seen that the neuronal circuits that you're using in the reward system are more or less a high percentage coincidence. So it means that behavioral addiction or use or substance addiction, they go a bit by the same path, not the same one exactly. But they they they are in the same, system. Dopaminergic system and reward system. So there is a difference because because normally also environment influences I know I did probably I went to gambling because I was in a very gambling family. So they play a lot of cards. A also I've seen that some in my environment, they were more in alcohol because also we come from a family that, well, the use of alcohol is something social and very welcomed and everybody does it on a normal basis. So I think that is also something to the person depending on how they are and what their essence, their personality traits, they're going to use one thing or the other.

Abdullah Boulad 00:13:44  I can, I can imagine if you start with the age of 11, at the age of 11 and a type of a behavioral addiction, is this kind of an enabler to use more to to do more, and you get easier dragged into substances or harder substances and behavioral.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:14:04  I had a lot of limits to myself. That's very interesting because I was really afraid of drugs. That sounds a bit contradictory, but it is like that I was afraid. I knew I had a very, addictive personality. So I was afraid of, more, more complicated drugs in the in the mentality of the people, like cocaine or others. But it's true that you start losing limits, so you start crossing some lines and those lines are crossed. So going back to that line is not as difficult as it was before. So of course there's a progression to it and what you thought you were never going to do. You you kind of do it afterwards at the end and it happens. So I crossed a lot of lines that are not in my values that I've never thought I would have crossed, and that for sure are not in my essence as a person.

Abdullah Boulad 00:14:59  Yes.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:15:00  But I, I had to it was it was survival.

Abdullah Boulad 00:15:03  Finally, what did the substance or the behavioral side give to you?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:15:09  We have to understand the value for the addict. And the value is that you don't have to cross some unpleasant emotions. You have very little tolerance to pain, to frustration, to sadness, and to other emotions that are maybe on the more not a pleasant side of of what we feel and and using. finally gets you out of that reality. You don't have to cross it. You just have to. It's like a short path. You. You just use and you forget. You forget about what? What was happening. What was your anger, your rage, your vulnerable vulnerability also. So that is the value of addiction. You just forget your reality and you don't have to cope with it. And there's a huge value to it. That's why we have so, so much prevalence today.

Abdullah Boulad 00:16:06  In your case, was it to a lack of emotional regulation or is it in every case combined with addiction?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:16:17  There's a lot.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:16:18  The universe of addiction is very broad. So defining it, it's a bit difficult. But the reality is we see two axes that are more or less the one is disconnection. So mine was more disconnection. So I disconnected my rational part from my limbic side so I didn't have to acknowledge what I was feeling. I just it's like, having a bit of a psychopathology. So you are like a big say, like a psychopath. You just don't connect with, with the suffering of others, with what you're doing and what pain it could be causing. And you don't connect with yours as well. And that's the value also to it. There's others, other profiles that are more in the, trying to get more emotions and experience. So a bit of a sparkle to life, like life is not enough. So I need more and more. well, there's a moment that more is not possible by natural basis. so you have to find other things that give you a that triggers the brain into higher quantities of dopamine.

Abdullah Boulad 00:17:27  More of what? More of pleasure, more of connection.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:17:31  I think its experiences as well. So it's like you want to have. Yeah, more. It means having a more intense what we feel is more intense life.

Abdullah Boulad 00:17:43  Because you feel numb.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:17:45  Yes, a bit, a bit. You feel numb and normal, situations in life, like seeing a sunset, for example, seeing a sunset. And then here in the island is something beautiful and everyone can enjoy it. An addict starts seeing that that sunset starts losing value to him because, the dopamine system is blocked and it affects to other systems as well. So he doesn't value the sunset as much as the person that's sitting next to him. And there's a very complicated, reality where you see that you should be valuing something that you don't value and others value, so you don't feel bonded to them because you don't see reality as they do, and you want to search for more. If a sunset is not enough, then I have to be in a boat, for example, seeing the sunset.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:18:39  If it's not enough, then I have to be in a very nice place around the globe. And if that's not enough, then what? And with the more question, there's nothing enough. If you always want one more, you never have enough.

Abdullah Boulad 00:18:58  When you mentioned gambling addiction, I mean this clearly you as a person at that age, you may have a limited amount of of of of capital. Yes. So what was then the next step to go to a well?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:19:15  Stealing, finally. Well, it was stealing to my own family, so it wasn't I wasn't stealing outside. I was stealing inside my house. So it's a very difficult thing to realise. So you, you're taking money from your family? There was a lot of cash in my house. in that time, I don't know exactly why. So. Yeah. Well, a little bit by here, a little bit by there. They didn't notice for almost three years. The first one to notice was my mother. She realized that it didn't make sense, but I, I was just, excusing myself, so justifying.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:19:59  I said it wasn't me. I, I, I was quite clever as well. So I was able to manipulate in a very strong way. So my mother started to think that she was the one that had the problem, because I started putting the problem inside her instead of seeing my own problem. And that came to a very bad place where my own mother had to, had to be well with a psychiatrist, with a doctor, seeing a psychotherapist because she thought she was wrong. And the only thing that was wrong was my addiction. Not even me. I wasn't wrong as well, but my addiction was the problem inside the house that no one wanted to see. And for sure I didn't want to show.

Abdullah Boulad 00:20:42  And how did they, at the end figure it out or realized that you have a problem?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:20:48  My impression is that you already. But there was a situation that triggered my recovery. It was maybe like €20,000 in my house, in cash from something, a jewelry or something they sold. And, the first day I started taking 1000, I went gamble and using and came back with nothing.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:21:14  And I said, okay, you take another thousand, you go back, you win 2000, you will give it back. So I took another thousand. And then, well, I lost them again. And for this happened for maybe one week. What's more. and this can explain a bit also how addiction works and how we lose dignity on the process. I went by car and I left it in the parking lot in Madrid, in the centre of Madrid, and it was a very expensive parking lot because it's in Gran Villa in the main street. when I went by bus the next day were by taxi. I couldn't pay for the parking lot because I. I lost all my money. So I have to go back to my house by bus, take more money for the next day, go back, gamble it again and lose it. Do not pay the parking lot. Go back to my house. That happened for a week until I spent the €20,000 and my car was still in the parking lot.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:22:20  So then we had another €300 depth for the parking lot I've been using for one week without being able to take the car out. My mother had to pay for it because I had no money, right? So they said, well, let's go to the police. €20,000. It's it's a crime. Finally, you can go to jail and it's a big theft. So I was cornered. I couldn't do anything but say what was happening. And that's where when recovery started. That same day.

Abdullah Boulad 00:22:53  By that time, you also started using other substances.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:22:58  I used a lot of alcohol, a lot of marijuana as well. A very little cocaine. A I wasn't more into that type. That was because of I was afraid of losing myself in the process. But the most suffering part. A part of the addiction itself was the thoughts you had about yourself. You know No. What? What? How could I go get out of that situation? So I had a lot of suicidal ideation. I never had any attempt, but I had a I went into a train to college, and every day I thought, let's jump.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:23:36  Maybe this can finish. I never did anything about it, but, But yeah, for years, going to college in the same train with the same thoughts. For me, that was the real suffering, the time and the thoughts, the way my mind was.

Abdullah Boulad 00:23:53  I just I just think, like you grew up in a in a caring family.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:23:58  I did.

Abdullah Boulad 00:24:00  Of course, there you could you could say there is a history family history of, of addiction. And, you're in this situation because of that, maybe partly, partly true, partly limited. But how how was your more extended environment, friends or extended family? How was your social network at that time?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:24:28  I was in good relating with people at that time, at least when I started. I went to a school where I had a bit of bullying, and that happened more or less. Yes. When I started with, pornography. that probably was a way to avoid that type of situation. So to forget again, And yes, I, I didn't I didn't do many friends.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:24:55  I was also a very strong personality so I did I, I didn't manage to adapt any, any of my to the, to the way things were working. I was always in my stubborn place where I wanted to dress in a way where the school didn't dress that way. So I was a bit stubborn. That didn't help me. And at the time, Yes, I managed it difficult to. To to do relationships. I'm a very social person. But those two years were difficult to me. Then, of course, my mother and father decided to take me out from there. Then it got a bit better afterwards, but I did have a bit of a traumatic situation with with that school at the time.

Abdullah Boulad 00:25:38  What was the the breaking point for you?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:25:42  It wasn't when when this happened, when the when the recovery started. Because I wasn't there, my family was there, the situation was there, but I wasn't there. Like if it was for me, I would have continued using It was just circumstances that led me to I have to recover.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:25:59  I have no other option.

Abdullah Boulad 00:26:00  So you knew you needed to recover or was it was it an intervention?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:26:06  It was an intervention.

Abdullah Boulad 00:26:07  Yes it was. So it was led by someone from rehab or external therapist?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:26:13  No, it normally it is, but in my case, no, no one came. I don't know why. My father and mother were there, and a very good aunt of mine, that she married the youngest brother of my grandfather. So she's. I think she's 78 now. She's helped me all throughout all my life. She's a person that's very important for me. And she also came to do the intervention. So I respected her a lot. And she was there to do a bit, modeling of what? What should happened, not only my father's, because we had a really, really rough and complicated relationship at the time. Yeah. Of course. so she said we have to go there. We took the train, we went to Barcelona. Every, every step of the way.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:27:02  I think it was heartbreaking for for my mother and father because it's true that at the time I had a revolute account, the English one with 3 or £4,000. So my thought in the train was in every stop you do in the high speed train was I run and I go to New Zealand or something like that wasn't the idea in my mind. And you start a new life and you would get better. And they saw it and they felt it because we talked about it some years afterwards. And, and then the train every stop. And then I went to Barcelona and started. But I didn't start there. There. I just took my addiction to a recovery or rehab center. A and then it took me a lot to start my own process. What I think of it is that I need it this time. Like my brain, even if I didn't want to recover, my brain was recovering.

Abdullah Boulad 00:27:59  By being present in that environment.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:28:02  Exactly. So just being there, even if you're not eager to to recover or eager to change or do a transformation process.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:28:12  You don't have stimulus. You're in a very safe environment. You have very good professionals that are taking care of you, and that makes you better, even if you don't want to get better.

Abdullah Boulad 00:28:23  How old have you been when you when you went into a rehab?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:28:26  I was 22 or less when I stopped gambling, and I was there for in the in house for four months and a half in house treatment. And then I stayed in after very intensive aftercare for almost two years.

Abdullah Boulad 00:28:43  So four months is quite a lengthy time. Yeah it is. In today's world, most of the people they they think, can I just detox in a week or two and and then I'm done. What would you tell these people.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:28:56  The the longer the better. In general, a it's, I always say the same equation. How many years have you been in a bad place? How long do you think it can take to be in a good place? It's quite short, but it doesn't mean it's one week or two.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:29:15  it took me. I was in a very bad place for almost seven years or eight years. It took me less than two years or more. Only one year and something to be in a very, very transformative place. And I came from other psychiatric as well about depression and very complicated places. So I think mental health takes time. It's not to transform yourself. It's a slow process. It's slow cooking. And, in general, it's whatever you need. If you need, four weeks, it's four weeks. If you need more, then take more. That would be what I would say to two people.

Abdullah Boulad 00:29:59  That's very individual. How long this might take or.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:30:03  Yes. I always joke like I had. I was the worst patient ever. The worst kind that was in, in in the rehab center a. So I need it this time. Like, I didn't do anything. I didn't follow the sessions. I didn't go to any place. I didn't want to do anything. So of course it was long because my body, my soul, my spirit needed this slow process.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:30:28  But there's others that come from a very functional or very, well developed life. Finally, you know, and I was I was a child almost in my brain was a child in a childish place.

Abdullah Boulad 00:30:42  Or maybe you also felt, forced to do what you what you have been doing, or was it out of your personal motivation? And. Yes, I want to do this.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:30:51  No. How does it work? It wasn't. It wasn't for from my personal motivation. but the the strange thing is that we, addicts have very strange ways of asking for help. So I was For months I was seeking help because I was saying to my mother that I had a relative that was in a in a process of, of a recovery. And I said, oh, I have to be there. It was like in an aggressive and and picky way, but I have to be there. I have to go there. There's not any other place I have to be. But it wasn't asking for her for help.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:31:30  It was just a like saying to her that she she wasn't good and what she was doing with me wasn't correct. But at the end I was asking for help. And I find, well, I've seen a lot of ways that addicts ask for help, and some of them are so strange and funny even because you just take a look and say, is this the way you ask for help? It's very difficult for an addict to ask for help, so the motivation is something that gets lost in the process. and trying to find an addict to say, I need to be there. I really need them for this. It happens sometimes, but it's not that common.

Abdullah Boulad 00:32:15  And I'm always trying to find excuses to get out of the pain. You are in that moment, possibly as well.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:32:21  For you, it's it's your it's your medicine. Finally. It's what makes you feel better. So the they're asking you to give up with the only thing that is helping you more or less in a very complicated and horrifying way.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:32:43  For me, the metaphor is if you have a room, your life is the room. And, it's, it's illuminated by some lamps and addiction starts smashing all the lamps. Family no color anymore, no lights there. Social environment, friends, profound relationships and connections. Out dark again. Work. Company. Also work or professional career. It also goes dark and at the end you find yourself in a room where the only thing that's lightened up is addiction. So what are you going to do? You're only you're going to go to the only safe place inside the room. That is your addiction.

Abdullah Boulad 00:33:33  That sounds to me it's an addiction to addiction. at some point.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:33:38  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's addiction to addiction. I like the the sentence.

Abdullah Boulad 00:33:43  It is when you started the process. Often I hear and I see also with some of our, patients it's kind of they try and then stop again. They try, they stop again or they finish a program and then the term relapse come in, comes into play.

Abdullah Boulad 00:34:04  is this part of a process? Is it better to stay, let's say, 4 or 5, six months in the rehab or do a month or two and then see, integrate and then, work on the process, you know, the differences. Do you see any.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:34:21  Yeah, I see differences. I think the world is going more to to letting the person, like, feel, the changes they need. And I think that's a good thing in some way. It's true that relapse prevention therapist, we are a bit biased in this because we are addicts. So we know the amount of suffering that there is in a relapse and the amount of knowledge is there as well. Like you learn from relapse, but we never know at 100% sure certainty if there is more to the acknowledgement of things or to the suffering. So we are in general more against relapse Like trying to avoid relapse is our job finally. So we prefer to avoid relapse. But if relapse happens, you don't have any other option but to learn from it and start in that grounding point and and go forward.

Abdullah Boulad 00:35:13  No blame, no guilt.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:35:15  No.

Abdullah Boulad 00:35:15  That no shame.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:35:16  That's, that's something that happened when I recovered. It's a way to in to put a lot of fear in, in the addict and it it's also in relapse. It's avoid some some some relapses. It's true. But it's not a methodology that works in the long term. because then you have to work on the fear that the, the same recovery has put inside you. And so it's a bit traumatic as well. So it has to be very responsible, very firm that relapse is not a place to go. but I think that if, if it happens, you have to you cannot just, put blame on the person that's in a dark place, because then you wouldn't be a good professional.

Abdullah Boulad 00:36:02  I understand if you would do this or say put blame on others, but how was it for you on yourself? How? How did you feel with guilt and shame? And I.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:36:13  Would.

Abdullah Boulad 00:36:13  All feel.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:36:14  Very ashamed of myself. Very, very ashamed of myself.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:36:19  It didn't have to do with the recovery process. It had to do with what I did with my life, with where my dignity finished and what what limits I crossed, and that I knew I crossed, and that I had to live with him for the rest of my life. I I'm still not proud now of what I did. Some of the things were very undignified, but I accept them now. I forgot I forgave myself. No, but it was. I was really ashamed. It took me a lot to to speak about very deep guilt and profound, shameful things that addiction led me to. it took me maybe 2 or 3 months to do that. And I did two, two sessions of talking therapy every day. And even though I, I was resistant, I didn't want to to give up with that, because I thought no one was kind of going to accept what I did. No one once was able to to take that information and to not be judged and mental about it, or do not think that this person is, pervert.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:37:32  He's sick. He's more than an addict. He has other things that are not that we cannot fix. I thought I was, I was not. There was no one that could help me get fixed.

Abdullah Boulad 00:37:47  I love what you just said. You were feeling shame. Shame is always Ways like towards others and what others think about you. But the moment you started to, to be more self compassionate and and forgive yourself, this is where the real healing process has started. Probably.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:38:13  Yeah, I started I started thinking, I'm here, I'm here, this is what I have. This is my reality. This is where I have to start working. And, and I saw others as well that were in the same situation as me, so I wasn't alone. other people have felt shame about their actions through their process, and they are getting better. Why can't I, I also started trusting, and I think to forgive yourself, you have to trust others with your reality. So I was very, I had no trust in anyone.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:39:02  No one in my life knew my reality. in in the big picture.

Abdullah Boulad 00:39:08  You were hiding it as well.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:39:10  From hiding it to everyone. Friends. Family. Siblings. Everyone. So now I was more transparent. Things started to get lighter. The weight of the guilt. The weight of the shame. Every session, after every session and another session, it started to. To drown and to get lighter. So, I was able to move more because now I didn't have that ton in my back because I felt emotions in my back. But there was all over the place. So And I started moving and and taking care of myself and trusting my, my therapists and the people that were, that were helping me. And reality started to, to get lighter as well. So I started seeing things that that weren't there before. So I appreciating things like, a hike doing trekking somewhere in the mountains in Barcelona, some things that I didn't have access to before and during for, for many years. And that's where I said, okay, this is a path where I can that I can follow, and maybe it's good for me.

Abdullah Boulad 00:40:31  So it started with trust. Yes. And showing vulnerability. Yes. And to do the work with a therapist, not to hiding what your feelings or emotions or your actions. I've been doing. I feel many people just hide their feelings and they are not open about what they what they think, what they do. And this leads to to a lot of pain. not just in the term of addiction, but also all all over mental health and on on the full scale.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:41:05  Yes. I think we have really poor emotional education and management in general and throughout any society we know. So people tend to think that being vulnerable is something that's going to make you weaker. That's the collective imagination we have. And, finally, not being transparent and honest with what you need leads to not knowing how to put limits to yourself and to others, not knowing how to manage situations that maybe you don't want in your life, but you accept because you cannot, manage them and say what you feel or what you think about them, and you find yourself just passing by without having contact with your real needs, your real wishes.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:41:57  Your real desires. And that's, that's a very sad picture for us.

Abdullah Boulad 00:42:04  It's it's kind of we feel sometimes, like, isolated within ourselves, not connected with others and not feeling the need to. Or not just feeling, maybe feeling the need to communicate with others but don't have the options to communicate with others and today's society more and more. Treatment or therapists become our former. Maybe in ancient times, like sitting in a circle within a family, friends or the tribe and and express ourselves.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:42:35  Yes, I always recommend when they finish the the recovery. Any client I always recommend. Now you have to use your family, your friends to do the same thing you've done with us. Like being open, being transparent. There's some people that don't have access to it and it's quite sad. It's also connectivity, the famous connectivity. We are connected to everyone, but disconnected finally at the end. I have plenty of friends in Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, or plenty of people I follow. But do I really know them? Would they call me on a Saturday morning? A real human connections cannot be.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:43:19  Differently as before, I think before we had real human connections. At least when I was little, we were in family gatherings. There was 35. I come from a really huge family. I have 34 cousins, so it was very nice, know to be connected with people and to be there present. Now, technology hasn't helped much with everything. We are in a society that thinks that connection can be done through a laptop, through a phone, and it's not real because our brain doesn't work that way. It's just like that. So we can try to find the same thing in a in a screen, but it's not going to happen.

Abdullah Boulad 00:44:00  What is real connection? You know, we always talk about connection. Is it just by sitting with each other and and and tell each other stories. What is real connection.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:44:11  I think the stories are are something powerful in our society. Even you can go back to ancient mythic mythologies where what you had between one generation and others, another were the narrative of of what they have seen in the gods or, or, or heroes of their past and telling stories.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:44:34  It is something that is healing because we work. Our brain works in some ways through narratives. We tell a story to ourselves about what our life is or what what we have done. On a Monday morning, we have to tell a story to ourselves to justify what we've done and to build also the story. We want to live in the future as well. From the present we are in. So. Stories help us acknowledge a lot of things. Sometimes I talk with my clients with sort with stories, with real stories from my life, from others life, because we can apprehend that and they can make us change things. So I think the real connection is being present with someone without the need of a transactional thing. So maybe we go to a meeting, but we're seeking something from the other person. Maybe we go to see a family relative, but we need a loan, so we're going there just to find. That's very transactional. I think we've gone into a transactional mode that's not very nice.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:45:41  In general, I think.

Abdullah Boulad 00:45:42  Stories are very powerful where they change how we think about ourselves. So we learn from from those stories. But also when we tell stories to others, we kind of expect or get, empathy to what we are telling or what we are saying or we. So whether we reflect or we get this empathy, and I believe this gives us the feeling of being connected with each other.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:46:15  It's impressive how when you come to someone with a very complicated story in your mind and you just put it out to the scenario with that person, I'm not going to say 100% of the cases because you never know, but in general, that person is going to receive it and it's not going to touch you. He's not going to say, be critical with you if you come from your emotion in general, everyone is going to receive it well and they're going to help you and they're going to make you read, write the story that maybe it's harming you in that moment, but if you look at it from another perspective, then maybe it's not that harmful and they can give you another place to look.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:46:57  Sometimes we get very fixed on an idea or a thought, and that's only a way of looking to your reality. In my case, to my reality. I could look at it from guilt, from shame, from what I've done and be there for the rest of my life just pursuing more addiction and putting more complicated things in my life. Where I started looking from a more mental health problem and distress everything and have a new perspective to it. And that healed me. So I think it heals everyone.

Abdullah Boulad 00:47:35  Finally, when we talk about connection. how was your connection to your sister?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:47:43  It was very, very strong at the end. she we were four, four years difference. She was older than me, and she was, She always told me, we we always wanted to do, like, group, music group together. So a band, a band. Yeah, a band. And, And she said, she always said to me, okay, I'm. We're doing the band, but you're not singing because I'm a terrible singer.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:48:11  So she was the one singing, and she was a very beautiful person. it seems, it could seem that sometimes you, if you were in those places where finally this happens and someone takes her life, you could be a very in a very bad place in general. But she was a very, very beautiful human being. And, I loved her very much. And the last two years, we were very connected. We were the blondies. We were four siblings. The blondies and the black. The the black keys. The black haired. So, we were the blondies were very much alike in general. I was even with her watching a film the day before everything happened. The film was say yes. So it was a character that had to said no to everything, and he and he had a like a little gamble with another person that he had to say yes to everything that came across him. So it was very funny story about was starting dating people from other countries, starting music, guitar classes, going parachuting.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:49:28  so it was it was a very, very good film. We saw the day before When the news came, I thought that my grandfather was the one that died because my father came to to take me from high school, so I thought something was going on. But I never thought that this what was was what was going on.

Abdullah Boulad 00:49:51  I cannot imagine how how far someone needs to be to to get into such a situation. how how was it for her? Do you know? Did you know that something is not going well as a brother? How was it for you?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:50:09  I didn't know anything at the time. Afterwards, I found out that she has had been in a very bad place. Three years before a depression. She had very, like, high episodes where she did a lot of things and very low episodes where she couldn't cope with anything. But I think that we It's a question that will never be answered to me. Am I found to accept? That this. This is what I have to live with.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:50:44  And, And that she is in a better place. I also strongly feel that. And that also helps me cope with it. But the answer to the question of what was happening, my mother was more aware of her situation, but in the time I wasn't aware of anything she thought she told me the days before she had a problem that she couldn't speak about. And I thought in my mind of a 17 year old boy that she had a boyfriend or. Or. Yeah, something like that. That she was flirting with, with a boy at that time with a man. And, and I thought she was going to talk to me about this. But this was a thing she told me. For 4 or 5 days before this happened. I insisted her that to tell me what's going on. But from a very friendly and and, easy and calm way. Not not thinking that maybe what her trouble was. It was that she wasn't able to continue.

Abdullah Boulad 00:51:53  What did it cost in you personally.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:51:58  I went into shock a I didn't, grasp reality from that day onwards until I started recovering.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:52:07  so I entered in a very bad state where I felt, I even, I even did things that emotionally are totally out of place. I laughed, I was like, in a social mode with people that came from all around the world to to the funeral of my sister. that's some of the things that afterwards, when I started my process, were very difficult as well because, how can you react this way? What I came to understand, and it's still struggle because I still struggle with this particular thing in my life, is that you react the way you can. And I just reacted the way I could at the time. I couldn't do any anything differently. it was too much for me. I was already starting in, to be in, in addiction, active addiction. And this was just a huge trigger that came to collapse.

Abdullah Boulad 00:53:11  My reality was this also part of the motivation to your calling to work in mental health?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:53:22  yeah, I think so. It is. It is for sure. I, I think that, I've been struggling with my mental health for many years, so I understand what it is to struggle with it.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:53:33  And when when they called me to start working in this because it wasn't, I wasn't looked for. I was planning on starting in Barcelona, not not in, in the islands. And then, well, for love I came to the island and I was already thinking to abandon my my job at the business school I was doing as an ethics professor there and, starting to, to form myself and, and work in this. And yes, it's when you see someone change, it's it's something that's so, it's it's something very difficult to explain how you feel as a professional when some someone takes the reins of, of his life and, and starts to, to change and starts to see that there's other ways of managing the reality. And, and they're less harmful and less painful. And, and yes, I, I started because I thought maybe I can, I can help others.

Abdullah Boulad 00:54:44  What do you do today working with with clients, what type of clients and how do you work with them exactly?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:54:53  A I have many types of clients.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:54:57  the youngest one has barely 18, and he started with us with 16 years. So very, very young. He's in a very good place, right now. And, my eldest client has 82. So in very different scopes from social places, socio economic background, very differently. all of them are in an addiction problem because that's my speciality and that's what I do. That's my expertise. So I do relapse prevention therapies. I do group relapse prevention therapies. And I do also, individual sessions with clients. And, and well, there's a different approach to both. So when I start working with a client, I also asked him where he is and what is his reality. My work is also to dimension that reality, because sometimes with addiction, we dimension very little of the reality because we are in a self cheating mode. So we're minimizing the truth about ourselves. So I help them find the way to get to that reality and to dimension, their life. And what, what it was in active addiction.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:56:21  I also give them the tools to, not get, dragged into relapse. So, there's a lot plenty of tools to. If you have a craving, that would be the first symptom of addiction. a start of relapse. there's a lot of tools to divert yourself and change your mind, your thoughts, your feelings to avoid a relapse. And then continue and and try another day without using, because that's important. Cravings are something that are very physical sometimes or very mental. So they're in the cognitive process only. either way you have to give tools from cognitive side and also from emotional side, to avoid the client to get in to the process of relapse.

Abdullah Boulad 00:57:13  You mentioned, group therapy and individual therapies. when would you see Group therapy versus individual treatment. More beneficial. And what are the differences?

Jacobo Cavestany 00:57:27  There's two difference. One is economical as well. And the other one is the type of reach and personalized treatment you're going to do. A group therapy has strong skills if it's well managed, but it's also very dangerous if it's not well managed.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:57:44  So it can create a big mirror effect so people feel identified with others and that can boost the process forward. It can also be very good to regulate energy and to feel that others are also in the same boat of recovery as you are.

Abdullah Boulad 00:58:01  You're not alone. So there are others.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:58:03  Others doing and struggling as well with the same issues because normally recovery, it's not always the same, but you more or less have some general topics that you're going to get into throughout the process. so it also helps in emotional regulation throughout the persons around you, around you. For example, I had a group therapy the other day. There was a person that didn't even speak throughout the two hours of group therapy, but you just saw how her face was changing. So she started. She was very tight, angry, anxious, nervous, tensioned. And then she started laughing a bit about some of the stories that others were saying. And then at the end, she felt totally distressed and and okay, and, emotionally regulated and she didn't speak a word.

Jacobo Cavestany 00:58:56  And that's very interesting. if it's badly managed, then you create a lot of, tension and resistance from the client. So because they can, like, feel confronted or they can feel ashamed of talking about themselves in front of others. And that is also something you have to take very much into account when you do a group therapy, you cannot just let it be. You have to. There has to be a moderator that knows how it works, because there's also personal things between them, because they're recovering together so well. We're humans. And, living together is something difficult. So that's also something that has to be managed and is also dangerous. Individual sessions, you can get to the point. You can get to the person much, much easier and in a much easier way. And also you can personalize between any person you find any addiction your your you're tackling. So that can give more personalized, more real tools to the person. And also she or he can feel more listened to. also the place for some persons that are very social or group therapy is something very good for them.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:00:17  A person that by base of personality traits is very shy or not very social, or not very open to others. It can be struggling for them.

Abdullah Boulad 01:00:29  Could it be also triggering being in a group setting? Because if I if I think about the type of clients we get at the balance, they they may have also multiple issues at the same time. It's not just the addiction or the substance issue. The detox from it's also about trauma or, or anxieties and maybe something you would say in a group or facilitator would do it wrong. It may trigger me, affect me more badly.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:01:01  It could. It happens not it could. It happens in general. Like you go to a group therapy and other clients are also open to talk about whatever you put in the group. so it can be triggering for you. And that's why, a very good moderator and professional has to be in those groups, and they have to be small by size. Like, I never recommend more than ten people inside a group.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:01:29  But it's also true that, it can let out some other things, if you don't work on them in the meantime or afterwards. So I think it has to be, a holistic approach. It has to be a multidisciplinary. We could say also it has to be taking look, looking at, from different perspectives. Yes. Because mental health is very, very difficult. So you we all know our things well, but we know our things only. So we cannot go into what, a psychiatrist would do because that's not my area of expertise. And, sometimes professionals, we tend to get overexcited and maybe try to think about things that are in our part. And that's something that can be a can be difficult for the client. Finally, that's the only interest.

Abdullah Boulad 01:02:29  It's very important in that case that a moderator within a group setting knows each one individually and know how to guide the conversations were to intervene, where to direct or redirect the the conversations in a group setting?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:02:49  Yes it is. And with addiction, because I do a relapse prevention group therapies, it's much more important because energy if not can get totally out of control.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:02:59  So you have to be very grounding. You have to put the energy where it is. If it's too low, you have to motivate a bit and do a more motivational therapy. If it's too high, you also have to calm down and, and easy and, ground a bit. The energy that's going around. And you have to know who to feel, the energy that is in each person that's going to the group therapy. So maybe someone comes from a personal problem that has happened that morning, and she's totally resistant and doesn't want to speak about it. And maybe it's not the time. So you just let it be. And the energy, if it's a good energy and that's your responsibility. The moderator, a professional, even if she she keeps tension, the being there present, even in other stories, it's also helpful to get out of your own emotion and give a little bit of distance and perspective to it. So it has to be very. I only recommend group therapies if it's very, very well managed.

Speaker 3 01:04:02  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:04:04  Let's dive into your your type of work therapy sessions you do during treatment and after during a residential program, treatment and and after and especially. Let's start with. With the residential part, I can imagine that the the first part, it's about building the trust and the connection we have been talking about. And then before they leave, is is also to set off and prepare them properly for, for the time after. How, how how are the sessions and what do you do in your work?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:04:44  In the first sessions, it's always about bond because sometimes it's true. I'm quite young, so for example, I have, clients. Sometimes I are biased by the type of person they have in front. It's like that we're humans. So if you're, for example, a man of, 50 something that had have a high profile life, and you're sitting in front of a 30 lot person that's talking to you about what? What, tools you should acquire to be better in the future. They can be a huge resistance there because you enter into competition and you have to overcome that.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:05:23  And that's the beginning. Hey, I had a client recently that that was the first part because we we had, tension there. He didn't accept or validate what I was saying, and, and me as a therapist. And that's something that you you it happens to me. It has happened to me a lot of times. So I I'm getting used to it. But it's not easy for anyone to do that and to cross that line when you establish the bond, then you start working and you start working on that client, on the person, on who? Who are you? What? What are you doing here? What? Why are we sitting here today? What do. What do you need from me? So you try to put the ball on the client. So he's the one that you know is getting himself motivated to start opening. If you do it from a more directive perspective, that's also a possibility. And relapse prevention is quite useful. Then you're just putting a lot of energy yourself, but maybe not generating energy in the client or self intrinsic motivation.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:06:31  And that is dangerous because then you take out that that extrinsic motivation and the client lives without tools and without being motivated himself for change. So it's important to leave the client to be the one to, to get knowing what things are happening inside him. And and they do finally, if you let them, they do because they are in a very nice environment, they are very well taken care of and they have a lot of silence, And silence is something totally needed for for changes, So when you have all this silence, when your life is plenty of stimulus or things, you just continue with it. You drive yourself by the next meeting, by the next conference call, by the next thing you have to do when you stop. And all of this suddenly is not there. Then maybe you have the capacity and capability of taking a look to yourself and seeing what's there. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't like it, but maybe you can start working on it.

Speaker 3 01:07:38  It's kind of a bubble.

Abdullah Boulad 01:07:39  So everyone can function well in a bubble somewhere on an island. Vacation. No triggers are available, but the time will end eventually, and they will transition into a world where the triggers are around, at home, at work, at, Within, within the colleagues, within the social environment they. They have been interacting with now their would the work really start. How do you prepare someone for these incidences or what's coming after?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:08:17  I recommend, at least for the first several months, protection in general. from the last prevention theory, you protection is the best strategy in general. So do do I have to go to this, company party where there's going to be a lot of alcohol and a lot of people, using, or maybe I know this from work that he goes and uses. It's the best strategy for sure, is not showing up. Avoid, avoid. That's the best strategy if avoidance is not possible because something you just have to go because you're the owner of the company, so it's having a company party without the owner.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:09:04  It's a bit difficult, Then you have to create strategies of a having ways out. That means a I know I'm going to be there. I set up a time I get there, I set up a time I go out, I have a car in case I have to leave a I have a car prepared and I leave. And because sometimes, even if you think you're ready to confront some things, then you get to the to to the place itself and you start feeling very nervous, very craved, very anxious. So you just want to leave. And for the first 6 to 12 months, it's better not to put too much pressure on yourself and be easy. If you have to not go to a place, not show up, and have strategies to to plan because finally, the survival mechanism that addiction is, is going to be present when there's options, when there's opportunities, when there's no option and there's no opportunity, it's very difficult for the survival mechanism to come in. So if you know you're going to go at five and leave at seven and there's someone in the party that's your partner that knows the process you're doing, you're totally fine and safe.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:10:24  If you I'll go at five and then I'll come whenever I feel like. Then you're leaving yourself to a lot of different decision making and possibilities. And that's when addiction comes in and comes in. Hardly. So the first months, it's better to plan yourself a lot, to have a very tight schedule, to know what you're doing and when. So your thoughts and your cravings are much, much, much less in general.

Abdullah Boulad 01:10:57  You need to have the awareness that there might be a risk of falling back. And this is kind of I see this often where where people think, yeah, when I'm detoxed, I feel good. I'm in a great place. Thank you for saving my life and everything is great now and I'm ready to go back home. And I'm I feel full of power. But that's that's kind of in a difficult stage. If they are not realizing I need to continue my work work.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:11:33  If you want to recover. For me at least, this 12 months of work, of hard work in your recovery and transformation process, it doesn't mean that you have to be in house or treatment for 12 months.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:11:46  It means that you have to do aftercare when you finish your process here. There's also a very interesting part of the recovery process that a lot of addicts have. It normally comes between the month one or 2 or 3. they go into the print cloud we call. So there's like a huge dopamine boost because of recovering. So it's like you get a, a bit of addiction to recovery. And and so they, they feel really well doing everything really. But they're not in a normal state as well. So and then the problem is when they go, they go down from the cloud, the pink cloud, they crash and then they don't know how to manage themselves. So it's important to continue. There's a lot of, curves around the way. There's a lot of things that are going to happen. You don't know I don't know. We cannot acknowledge the future, but being supported by someone is something that's it's a huge guarantee. Finally, like, why would I risk it? That's a question I, I, I try that my clients and my clients pose themselves.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:12:53  What way? I risk just going back and doing this amazing treatment for one month, two months, and then going back and not having any help and risk myself.

Abdullah Boulad 01:13:05  No safety.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:13:05  Net. No safety net. It doesn't. It doesn't make much sense. So I try the clients to pose the question that why would I do do this alone? Why? For what reason? And that's where sometimes you find out that there's also a bit of too much certainty to too much self-assurance about that things are going to go well, and, it's still complicated. Even if you've been clean for eight weeks or six weeks, you still have a lot of work to do. We all have a lot of work to do. In general.

Abdullah Boulad 01:13:42  I've also seen some of my clients coming for a rehab for addiction to leave and transform from one addiction to another. Like overtraining. Sport. whatever. What cases have you seen, in your career?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:14:03  I've seen many of those cases. And sports is a great substitute for the addicts because it's very healthy.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:14:10  Finally. So who can tell anyone that doing 4 or 5 hours of body work or training.

Abdullah Boulad 01:14:15  A certain degree?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:14:17  Yeah, I know, I know, I know. But in general, that's why they feel better. They create a lot of endorphins and dopamine as well when they train. And, we had a client that then came to do ultra trails and 180km careers. He was one of the best in the country. It's, it's just going from one adrenaline rush to another adrenaline rush. It's not leaving your life in any balance, really, because you're not fixing the system. You're just putting another corner to it and trying to reduce damage recall. And it's true. That's better. It's better to do training than to use cocaine. It's better for your system organically, for your family, for your money account. It's better, but it doesn't mean that you're healing. It only means that you're changing the place where you you crave and what you use to regulate you emotionally. Instead of crossing emotions and feeling them, you go to hours to mountain and and run for, for until you, until you damage yourself.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:15:24  We had a lot of relapses of people that substituted any addiction with sports or training when they injure themselves. So your knee doesn't work, you can't run anymore. What are you going to do? Where are the tools?

Abdullah Boulad 01:15:40  You get.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:15:40  Back? Yes. And you go back to the same place you were. That's why there's a lot of difference between the word and it's quite from old school, but it's it's nevertheless it's true. Abstinence and recovery. Abstinence. It means you're not using anything. Recovery means that you're healing your brain. You're changing the neuronal paths that you use, and you're changing the way you look at the world. So that's transformative. This is only a lottery ticket for the same place in the future.

Abdullah Boulad 01:16:14  What would be an ideal process of of therapy or treatment now working for years in this field?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:16:22  I think there is no like you have to look at the client and think, what does he need? I think in general, if we have to to put a process, it would be perfect to have very individual sessions mixed with group therapies because it gives the best of of both.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:16:44  So you still have the individualised talking therapist to psychotherapist or psychiatrist that can give you the place and a safe place to talk about things that maybe the group cannot manage because there are two yours, or there wouldn't be a scene the way you would like to, or you you feel you're not opened enough, enough in that time. and mixing both, I think, in a motivational and identification identification way would be would be the the best. Old school also was a lot about confronting live therapy. And it has to be it's very difficult. I've done confronted this therapy and it's something that, you have to be really sure where you're standing if you do that, because if not, you're going to damage the client. And, well, it has only to be used in very, very concrete and, very extreme scenarios, I think, where you see that the client is just leading himself to relapse directly. And, and relapse could be something that there's no way out, because sometimes the problem is that there's a point where the brain maybe has not no cognitive utterance anymore to go back to recovery.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:18:04  So there's people that cannot recover because they've gone too far in addiction. And there's a turning point where where maybe you never know. I've seen miracles, but but maybe the brain cannot have the capacity capability of recovering, and that's dangerous.

Abdullah Boulad 01:18:24  What are the differences of treating, let's say, younger patients versus older patients like an adolescent brain? Is it working the same like an older 30, 40, 50 plus year old brain?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:18:39  It's not the same. So recovery a treatments for people that are older are normally shorter because if you've come through your life being able to manage things, things more or less, even if you have to cope with an addiction, it means that you have some, executive functions that are okay. So you are able to do things. The prefrontal brain is not that damaged, or it's more developed than for a teenager that has no reference to life. So he doesn't know how to manage himself in any situation. not work, not, social, not not friends. So the difference is, about the capacity of acknowledging the changes and being able to to grow them inside you.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:19:28  So it takes much longer for someone young. So you have we always say to the, to the client, you have a double problem. You're an addict, but you're also young. So that's that's a difficult clash.

Abdullah Boulad 01:19:44  So it's easier to recover from from an addiction if you have developed it for a short period of time. If you're if you're older.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:19:53  It is easier. The treatment is easier. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:19:57  It can. Maybe access more emotional regulation techniques because like what you're mentioning. Yes. Has brought you.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:20:04  Finally, we all humans do a lot of emotional regulation, even if we're not aware of it. So when your body demands yourself to stretch, it's because something is asking you to undo an emotion that maybe is in the back because of what you've done for the last two hours. If if you're uncomfortable in a situation, then you leave or you do something about it or you manage it. Those are all emotional tools. Well, we're just not aware of them, but we've been using them all our lives.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:20:36  Even if we don't know what they are or we don't know why we do that? No. Or moving your fingers or trying to to grasp something in the hand. Those are emotional regulating tools and people develop them.

Abdullah Boulad 01:20:49  What about the time? Is the time relevant for a successful recovery? If you have been using for two years and now going into treatment, or if you have been using for 30 years and then going into treatment.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:21:06  The quantity, the timing is, I think my my feeling and this is more less technical and more intuitive, is that your timing is your timing. So it means that if you are an alcoholic, you develop a very long, addiction. So you start drinking at 17 and maybe you go into recovery when you're 60. But if they come to you and they say when you were 35 and some symptoms started to arise. It will tell you need recovery. You would say no I don't, I don't need. So we all come at the time that's meant to be for us.

Abdullah Boulad 01:21:48  I think when you look at the length of therapy in total, you mentioned something like 12 months is like a bulk, timing. it sounds a lot for, for for many people.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:22:02  What what I mean is that that is what the the time that the brain gets to recover itself. It comes from 12 months, depending on the use and the substance. So alcoholics will take 12 months. And maybe if you take, benzodiazepines, it will take 24. if you have that addiction, cocaine would be methamphetamines would be in the middle between 16 and 18 months. What that means is that your brain is going to shape differently, and you're going to have the ability to have cravings for that long and those cravings you. If you don't have the the the help you need. Maybe it's going to make you take some decisions that finally are going to get you to the relapse. So there's they've done tomography in brains and they've seen that if you are a cocaine user after 18 months without using you, your brain is no different from whoever is sitting next to you.

Abdullah Boulad 01:23:04  Does it mean after 18 months or maximum 24 months, I'm healed forever? And you know the state of being in recovery? What does it mean? And can I then start drinking socially or consume socially? You know, many would ask that,

Jacobo Cavestany 01:23:26  I come from, from where they think that this neuronal paths are always broken. So it means that if you start using again, you're just gonna develop again the same problem, and you're going to start getting yourself into very bad places when you recover and you do a full recovery. you don't want to drink socially anymore. You don't want to use socially anymore. It's not that you can't because you can always. The decision is always of the person of the client. They can always do it. It means that you've you've reached such a good place that you wouldn't risk it for anything. You wouldn't, for example, if tomorrow they come to me and they say, well, you know what, Jacob? We're we're wrong. We were wrong. We've done the studies.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:24:20  Your DNA in your brain, you have the dopamine system is perfect. You are in a you you are not an addict.

Abdullah Boulad 01:24:28  You could use again.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:24:30  You could use again. I think you wouldn't find me in the bar the next day. Yeah, that wouldn't happen, because I'm not. I'm not going to risk. Like you just stop. Stop using. It's just one part. Then you start growing and things start to get better. And I wouldn't risk it. I wouldn't risk it. The brain is no different when you get to one year and a half or two, but you still have to take care of yourself in the future. Because finally, the what we talked before, when you have less tolerance to certain emotions and you cope not that well with frustration or pain or other things, then you have to have a life with not that many suffering in general. And that is that is important for an addict. We are we are vulnerable.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:27  Finally, there are differences between the substances you use, of course.

Abdullah Boulad 01:25:32  Alcohol. You can just get everywhere around the corner. For gambling, you need money. For cocaine, you need more, money as well to buy. It's more expensive drug. But if you don't have money, you cannot go and gamble. What's the effect of, having sufficient money in terms of your recovery process?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:25:57  It doesn't help at the end. if you have a lot of money, limits are to be crossed, can be higher. So finally, if you have a lot of limitations from the money side, you cannot use whenever you want, whatever you want, the quantity, you want it. So money is going to be a big driver of, of not recovering, finally, because you're always going to have access to a to whatever you want or need. So putting limits on on yourself for an addict, it's a very difficult thing to do. So I'm not going to do this, but there's a part of you that wants to. And it's not only the part that says you have to recover, you're in a bad place.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:26:42  So money is is a very difficult thing for an addict. If you have a lot of money. And some clients that we have are in a very wealthy position, a it's not a guarantee for anything.

Abdullah Boulad 01:26:56  It can be even worse than your situation.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:26:59  It can be worse on the situation. It can be it can make the situation go faster to a very worse place. Because if this is the mental health problem that goes with the word more, always more, never enough. Imagine if more means almost infinite. If never enough means you can have whatever you want because you have the axis. Finally, we live in a in a world that works with money and whatever money can buy. Unfortunately, it can be bought. So that puts yourself in very, very complicated places.

Abdullah Boulad 01:27:41  In today's world and society, it's becoming more and more available to get mental health treatment. Do you? Do you see that happening around around your network circle and the people you have been working with?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:28:00  I went to to a dinner two weeks ago in Madrid.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:28:05  We were seven people, three couples a night and, And five of those six persons were going to a psychotherapist, not related to addiction, to other mental problems. And they were openly talking about it. Well, I'm also surrounded by people that are maybe more in this mode than others, but I found it quite impressive. So I think the world is changing. And finally, we are one of the most important topics on the table. We have been there a long time. They just haven't acknowledged us until recently. And they are seeing that there's it's affecting productivity, it's affecting the way people work. It's affecting a well, a lot of the suicidal is one of the first death rates we have in in Spain, I think, or in other countries people are getting a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety. So it means that it is a problem. Why why is it a problem? Because we're not we're not. We haven't taken care of this throughout any generation in general. And now we have to cope with a much faster world that we cannot that we cannot grasp it entirely.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:29:28  So it means that we are not prepared for this. For what was what happened. And people are feeling it, and they want to take care of it. And it's important to do things as. As the one you do to to put the word out there that we are here. There are people that that are doing this that are helping others. We reach as many as we can. It's not enough. That's also true. But we can reach them and they can reach us, I imagine.

Abdullah Boulad 01:29:59  And to hear stories like yours to and to see they are not alone. And in whatever their situation is, what would you recommend to them? To, how can they reach out or get help out there? Are there any tools, information, books you you like to go to?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:30:21  Each country is different. So, I think you have to go, like, start near, if you can, to see what's out there for you if, if it's possible. and also look for there's a lot of people now that are getting a lot of books of neuroscience, of how things work, even apps that are coming out that you can you can start to have some knowledge about what mental health is, how it works, how you work.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:30:50  Finally, because each person is a universe A and start start by, they're looking just the nearer you can and the the place, you know, you can you can ask there and then start. Maybe it's it's a starting point of a, of a very, very nice process and transformation for you.

Abdullah Boulad 01:31:12  So get somehow, the willingness to learn and understand and maybe to open up and speak as, as a second step.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:31:21  Yes, it is for sure, but I think we all need it. It's like I don't understand people that deny, for example. No, that deny they have mental health or not. You can have good mental health in the moment you are. You can have a very balanced one, but it doesn't mean that you're out of the equation. It's just part of who we are. We have organic failure. We have mental failure. We have a we can have a heart, a heart, a arrhythmia, and we can have a depression. We can have it's this part of how humans are.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:31:53  And and we cannot just deny it on a, on a, on a basis. It doesn't. I still I'm still impressed with people who do. But I also understand that I was there before. So I understand that people that cannot cope with with their that they have an emotional system that they, they feel and, and they don't want to know that they feel they just want to go by and continue with their lives without taking any attention to themselves. It's a bad strategy, but your a lot of people do it that way.

Abdullah Boulad 01:32:34  Life is not a one way street, certainly, and we all go through ups and downs. Hopefully it's, it's it's needed for our personal growth and, and development and and to to to learn about life and and become a better person and, and experience life by itself. So, you have been doing a lot of work with, with, with your clients and patients. What were like the biggest transformations you have seen people have gone through?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:33:11  If I can recall now, I had a person that was in a very Bad psychiatric state.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:33:19  There was addiction behind, but the psychiatric state was very demanding. It was like, if I had to explain in in words, if he couldn't have access to reality. So he knew and he was conscious of how that that was happening. But he couldn't control any of his thoughts. And just it was like a, a, like a blasting and, and bomb of thoughts all day, all the time that he couldn't stop and couldn't get into control. So he was just in a, in a, in a position of staying put and without moving. He came to the sessions and and he was we thought we were losing him, losing him from a, from a mental part so that the brain would never come back so that the brain Would just be a distance between him and what he can. He can acknowledge and the reality he was living in. He started to do the program. A bit by bit. So it was a very tailored one. It had to be very slow because it couldn't he couldn't feel any pressure.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:34:37  A pressure could have destabilized him much more and it had to be very little by little. Then one week after another after another, he started talking. So he didn't even talk much. And in that state he started talking. He started connecting himself a bit. So thoughts were impermanent always. And and then he, he started being able to do more sessions. And we're talking about the not the talking sessions but more a well training, Meaning physical work. Yoga, meditation. Those are also very important tools for any recovery. And so that started a more positive cycle. And of course there was a lot of, psychiatric medication as well. Pharmacology, because it was needed by a psychiatrist. And, and then in three, 4 or 5 months, he started, he started to be in a very different place. And we started to see the essence of the person, the essence that wasn't there before this person even started biking. And I think he did 100km biking. some days he recovered his his job, his daily job, and he started relating.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:36:01  He even went to live with his mother. That's very old. And taking care of her. so someone that wasn't present at all in his life or life of others related to him started to. He was one of the brothers that is taking care of the mother. He's the main one. The sisters also do things, but he's the main one that's taking care of her mother.

Abdullah Boulad 01:36:25  So, yeah, beautiful to see. Like a big transformation where psychiatric and addiction was involved in this case. What do you Jacoba do in your daily life to stay in balance?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:36:44  I think, our, our industry or sector or where we work is a very demanding one. So it's very important for anyone who works in this field to be also aware of their own mental health, because sometimes you are helping others and you forget yourself. So, normally what I do is, twice or three times a week, I do an intensive physical training. I do yoga and meditation. I try to stay connected socially with friends, family and and do things with them.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:37:23  So from time I'm from Madrid. So from time to time I go to the island. I have a brother in the States, so I try to go and visit him. and also I well, I take care of my place. My house. Well, my my own things. So I think there's there's many tools. You just. I've done a lot of things in the past years. Now I have my own very tailored tools that serve me and that maybe don't take that much time that I had before, when I was more with myself and less towards others. but also cold showers, for example. That's, that's the thing I do every morning for one minute, I put the, the heat in the colder, coldest part of the, of the shower. and that is also calming the nervous system a lot. So you can start fresh the day. Yes, but I try to take care of myself because if not, burnout is also common in in our industry.

Abdullah Boulad 01:38:23  What do you suggest to everyone in the world who's listening out there?

Jacobo Cavestany 01:38:27  Don't hesitate to seek for help if you need it.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:38:32  It's going to be the best tip you're ever going to do if you go for it.

Abdullah Boulad 01:38:37  Thank you, and thank you very much for all the work you you do at the balance, but also beyond. I think it's very, very important to to be, the light for, for, for people in need and make them aware also that they are in need, what they need. Thank you very much, Jacobo, and thank you for the conversation and being so open today.

Jacobo Cavestany 01:39:04  Thank you so much. It was great to be here.