Living a Life in Balance

Trauma Recovery: ROLFING, Somatic Work, and the Path Back to Safety in the Body

• Abdullah Boulad • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Petró Kohut, Rolfing & Somatic Trauma Therapist at The Balance, brings a grounded, compassionate approach to healing that goes beyond just relieving pain. In this episode, he opens up about the ways our bodies carry stress, hold memories, and reflect the stories we’ve lived—often without us even realizing it. Through touch, movement, and deep listening, Petró helps people reconnect with themselves, release long-held tension, and move toward real, lasting change. It’s a powerful reminder that healing doesn’t just happen in the mind—it lives in the body too.

🔗 Watch now for a conversation that will shift how you think about the body’s role in emotional and mental well-being.

About Petro: Petró Kohut has spent over two decades in the helping field, offering a deep and evolving blend of manual therapy, bodywork, Rolfing®, and trauma healing. His work focuses on addressing the root causes of tension and pain—posture, movement patterns, and unresolved trauma—through hands-on techniques that engage the body’s myo-fascial system. With a strong foundation in Remedial and Sports Massage, he has expanded his practice to include Structural Integration and is currently training in Somatic Experiencing. Passionate about men’s work and human potential, Petró creates sessions that are not only physically transformative but often emotionally profound.

[00:00:00] – Introduction: Feeling Emotions and Reconnecting with the Body
[00:02:44] – Petro’s Journey in Bodywork
[00:06:00] – Understanding the Body-Mind Connection
[00:09:41] – Building Real Awareness in the Body
[00:12:24] – Intellectual Responses vs. Emotional Presence
[00:16:20] – What Causes Disconnection? Trauma, Pressure, and Upbringing
[00:18:20] – Emotional Impact of Boarding Schools and Lack of Safety
[00:21:26] – Personal Growth Through Trauma and Reconnection
[00:22:39] – What Is Rolfing? Petro’s Introduction to Structural Realignment
[00:24:17] – The Method Behind Rolfing: Realigning the Body’s Integrity
[00:26:26] – Movement as Integration: How the Body Learns to Feel Safe
[00:29:05] – Addressing Long-Held Patterns Stored in the Body
[00:31:40] – Simple Practices to Support Body Awareness Daily
[00:34:31] – The Therapist’s Role in Guiding Embodied Healing
[00:37:00] – Why Mind and Body Must Be Treated Together
[00:41:12] – Inside a Somatic Experiencing Session
[00:44:11] – Grounding Through Sensation: Using Anchors for Presence
[00:48:39] – How Somatic Work Transforms Long-Term Mental Health
[00:52:19] – Stories of Healing: Witnessing Deep Body-Mind Shifts
[01:03:00] – Maintaining Personal Balance 

For further mental health information and support, visit The Balance RehabClinic website:     https://balancerehabclinic.com/

Follow Petro Kohut: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/petr%C3%B3-kohut-91412672/

Follow Abdullah Boulad: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdullahboulad/
https://www.instagram.com/abdullahboulad/          

You can order Abdullah’s book, ‘Living A Life In Balance’, here: 
https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0BC9S5TCF

Follow The Balance RehabClinic:  
https://www.linkedin.com/company/thebalancerehabclinic/
https://www.instagram.com/thebalancerehabclinic/

Petró Kohut 00:00:00  When I ask you, what are you feeling? I'm not just asking what's wrong? I've been amazed that sometimes just doing body work, somebody shifts and then they let go of something they've been carrying without even knowing what that was. Often people block it because they think if I felt this feeling, it would end me. You know, if I start, if I really cried, I would never stop. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that sentence. When somebody is able to to feel safe enough to mention something or to to let themselves remember something that has held them prisoner for their whole life. And I can be there just it's like there's no sound in the room, and we're all just this magic happening.

Abdullah Boulad 00:00:54  Welcome to the Living a Life and Balance podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Petra Cohort, a therapist, golfer and somatic experiencing practitioner. In this episode, we spoke about the mind body connection, the effect that trauma leaves on the body, and how his work as a practitioner allows for the safe processing of this trauma throughout the body.

Abdullah Boulad 00:01:23  I hope you will enjoy. Petra. What motivates you to do what you do today in the world?

Petró Kohut 00:01:34  So it started many years ago. So I've done a lot of things in this field leading to where I am now and the reason I do it now. The reason I love doing it so much and get up every day with the passion I have for it is, I see so much need for it. You know, I feel like we're living in a world that maybe takes us right up into our heads and living in our heads with devices and distractions and polarization and all these other things that are happening. a lot of people are missing this embodied state and in to be able to be with, the sensations that are happening in our bodies. So to avoid feeling, we, they run off into addiction of phones and work and other things that distract them from being present. And that ends up meaning that if we're not present, we don't really relate to each other. We relate to the idea of each other, and that doesn't seem to be going very well in the world.

Abdullah Boulad 00:02:38  And for how long have you been doing this and what brought you into this?

Petró Kohut 00:02:44  I started in body work when I was 19. I started studying massage and with the idea of getting into, like, physiotherapy or something like this. In university, I met a golfer. he blew my mind with how he could touch and how he could change things under his hands. I studied everything I could with him. I then spent ten years traveling around the world and not dedicating myself to more study, but doing the work that I was trying to. That I thought he was doing with me. Trying to learn what that was. You know, I read as much as I could about what structural integration is. And, I wanted to be able to do that with people, but I hadn't studied it. Studying it. Had to. I had to go to Europe or America, and I didn't have the funds for that. I didn't have time for that. I was just living my life and trying to figure out what it was that Ida Rolfe was trying to do with Rolfing.

Petró Kohut 00:03:39  But from the ground up, just by touching people, just by trying to. What does it mean to have an integral structure?

Abdullah Boulad 00:03:45  I see. yes. And when you mentioned some, some elements of development around the world or globally, what are the, global developments today which lead to our disconnect from our body and and, what surrounds us?

Petró Kohut 00:04:07  Yeah. everything. I often tell the story of how one of my teachers, after the the tsunami in Thailand, she brought a group of somatic experiencing practitioners to Sri Lanka to actually do somatic experiencing and help people release the trauma that they might have experienced. Watching people die and watching the towns be destroyed by the tsunami, etc.. She ended up working with a lot of expats, and they had these translators there, and they were going to do the work with everybody. But the locals weren't coming. And she, went looking for them in the markets and had conversations with people. And one of these women said, well, we kind of do that work for ourselves.

Petró Kohut 00:04:50  And took her down to this group of women sitting by the edge of the water, and there were mending nets, and they were singing and they were laughing and they were crying, and they were telling stories, and they were being together in the love and the pain and the joy and the sadness that, that that they had lived through and they were living through. I don't think we have that in the West. You know, we live in isolated houses and isolated communities, and we want to have connection, but we have it through this image of who we are. It's hard to actually connect. And because of that, over the last 800 years or so, I think we need to go the other way. So I try and invent things and do things to help people sit together and be real with each other. And that means being the pleasure and the pain and the sadness and the joy and whatever is coming up.

Abdullah Boulad 00:05:45  I love that. I love that because, you know, I have a Lebanese background and And whether you want it or not, every day could happen that someone knocks on your door and just walks in and.

Abdullah Boulad 00:06:00  And that's more the community based living being together. And then I was wondering as a, as a child always, how how the neighbors with my parents and, and and, and other family members who come together, they just talk and they just exchange about their day, about their feelings and struggles. So I, I can relate to this a lot, but growing up in Switzerland, it was completely the opposite, you can imagine. it's a lovely country. I, I enjoyed it. I have many good memories and feelings, but, not the feeling of a community being that connected. It's more of of some form of isolation. So you mentioned a couple of, things. Now, you mentioned body. Body connection. Feeling. What does it mean to you and. And how? How can someone understand this concept of connecting with the body?

Petró Kohut 00:07:02  Yeah. What we really feel happens through the body. You know, when I feel happy, it's a feeling. There's this excitement in my chest and there's tingling in my hands.

Petró Kohut 00:07:14  And there's. So it's a feeling that can be experienced in the body. We often don't slow down enough to notice that feeling and nor nor sadness, nor, the questioning feeling of not being too sure about something, you know, and we might read the paper and we might read a certain newspaper, and that gives us a certain picture of what's happening in the world. And we just take that information and think, that's okay. As long as I'm with that information, I'm okay. But then we hear other things and we think, well, that must be bad because this is a right and that must be wrong. all of that actually brings up uncertainty. If we really drop into it, it drops into like, I don't know what's going on, I feel confused or I feel like unsure. I don't want I think that might be wrong, but at the same time, I think that person's also seems like they're being honest. So. So how can I be with both? And I think it's through the body that we can let ourselves settle.

Petró Kohut 00:08:15  Maybe first, feel first, feel the confusion and feel the not in the stomach of like, I don't know what's going on here. And then once we let it ourselves, feel it and breathe, then it sort of that feeling passes and we settle and then we can have time to like, look into something. But it's the denigration. It's the it's the I don't want to feel uncertain. So I'm just going to grab on that and believe this. And that means I have to say that's wrong. That's I don't know if I'm answering your question, but but it's like the way I feel that I'm in being embodied is so important because it's the way to pass through all the things that are being, that are we're not sure about. It's like we can make sense through that. We can make sense of the world through knowing. I'm not sure what's happening, but I feel this. So I'm going to settle and then do the next thing.

Abdullah Boulad 00:09:08  I'm pretty sure many of those who listen to our today's conversation, they think I feel my body in a way.

Abdullah Boulad 00:09:15  If it hurts, I feel it hurts. is this enough or what exactly are you talking about? where is the level of being disconnected versus starting to feel your body? what what is exactly the the the, the level of, there is there some sort of level or is there black or white?

Petró Kohut 00:09:41  There's heaps of levels. Of course there's a spectrum. And, I often tell this story with people that I start working with. When I ask you, what are you feeling? I'm not just asking what's wrong? Most of the time that's what people think I'm asking. And so when I say, well, what are you feeling? They say, well, no, this pain's gone. So nothing. And I'm like, well, you can maybe you can feel the chair you're sitting on. Maybe you can feel the temperature of the air. Maybe you can hear the car's outside or my voice. You know, what are we feeling? Comes through five different senses. And that's in the belly. It's in the skin.

Petró Kohut 00:10:22  It's in everything. And so I say, okay, well, imagine most of the time in our society when you say, hi, how are you? We're not looking for an answer. Yeah. You know, if we were, we're going to hold up the queue in the supermarket. So, in this room with me, I say, okay, when I say, how are you? I want you to notice what's happening and tell me that. And it's like we have to learn a new language. And when we start to learn a language, we have to look at the alphabet. We have to start learning the letters and then the words and then the words, maybe then sentences and then phrases and then paragraphs and then the story. So that same thing with the body. Like, what are you feeling? Maybe the temperature and the skin is one thing. That's a level. Yes. You know the chair is a level. And then there's actually I feel tight in my belly because I'm excited about having this conversation today, or I feel a little excited in my chest and my heart's beating a little faster.

Petró Kohut 00:11:23  We can get more and more and more present with that, and at the same time not be a prisoner to that. It's not that that feeling means that we should lay down everything because my heart beats a little faster. No, it's just a notice. It's there and it will pass. It will always change. Everything is always changing. So sensing is also allowing. Not suddenly making. Oh, I have heat here. That's a big deal. What is it? Am I is it a tumor? You know. Can do I have to focus? Not much on not judging.

Abdullah Boulad 00:11:57  And I feel sometimes the mind plays a big role in, in, answering such a question. How do you feel or what do you feel in your body? Like more. We may give an answer based on an intellectual element of how I should feel. How how is your experience working with clients who are disconnected or give more likely more intellectual, mind based answers?

Petró Kohut 00:12:24  Yeah, it's, it's like a tug of war.

Petró Kohut 00:12:30  It's like a tug of war. It's not easy sometimes, because a lot of people, it's really dangerous to feel, you know, maybe they haven't felt for so long and the pain that they lived through was so bad that to feel now opens up a doorway to something they don't want to sense, you know? So I take it very slowly. I don't force it on to anybody. And it's also why I do both things. I work through the body. I do touch work. I do Rolfing so people can get a sense of their body. And I say, move your hand while I work on your forearm. And. And they sense their body again. Yes. And then they can maybe then sit with me and put names to. I feel loose here. I feel a little bit tighter here. Okay. So that's starting to put letters and words together in their new alphabet language that they're putting together.

Abdullah Boulad 00:13:24  Yeah. Beautiful. It sounds simple elements you bring into but they have powerful impacts on the individual.

Abdullah Boulad 00:13:32  I wonder what brings in the first place someone to to be disconnected from from a body? from a childhood perspective. When we grow up, we move around. What brings us at one? What at what point in our life? Does it happen that we get disconnected? Yeah.

Petró Kohut 00:13:54  I guess every day, When we are safe to feel what's happening, you know, when, when, when we're with our kids, and something goes wrong and we tell them off and they get scared of us if we can then go to them and say, hey, I know I was a bit aggressive then, but we repair it by saying, hey, what are you feeling? Are you okay? Oh yeah. I was scared because you said this and I didn't know if I should do this or not. And I'm like, okay, I'm really sorry about this part. I was trying to protect you from this thing that was dangerous, and I raised my voice. Are you okay now? And we repair that, and they feel like what they're feeling is okay.

Petró Kohut 00:14:34  It's. It's okay that they felt scared. They felt tight. They was, you know, maybe a tear came and then they let it go. And then they're back. Yeah, most people don't. You know, in the in the 50s and 60s. That wasn't the sort of the way kids were raised and maybe in generalizing. Of course, if you're told to just suck it up, you know, if you're told. Stop crying.

Abdullah Boulad 00:14:58  Be strong.

Petró Kohut 00:14:58  Be strong a man. Boys don't cry. And then to feel an emotion suddenly becomes, I'm not supposed to feel that. So I have to shut that down and just get on with things. You know, so it happens all through our lives. Because sometimes I'm at work and it's not normal. It's not okay to feel my emotions because I'm with somebody. So I have to hold them and I have to breathe, and I have to let that settle, because whatever I've heard might be very touching. And I can allow myself to, to show that I've been touched a little, but I'm not going to go to pieces thinking, oh, if that ever happened to me what would I do.

Petró Kohut 00:15:32  And yes, but I could be very touched by it because I could relate to my own family and my own life. And wow, if that ever happened to me, what would I do? But that's mine to take home and take to my therapist and speak to my supervisor and and then have be heard and be felt so I can release that. So doing the work on ourselves is I'm totally lost now as to what your question was.

Abdullah Boulad 00:15:56  But yeah, when at what point in life people may get disconnected from their, their body, that's, that's I mean, it could be certainly some, some life circumstance, some events, some traumatic, traumatic experiences. So what is, from your experience, examples of those which got disconnected the most?

Petró Kohut 00:16:20  I don't I don't know the most, if I could say, but there's the type that is the upbringing of the person over, say, 15 years of being with parents who were not very well regulated and not very caring for the emotional upbringing of the child.

Petró Kohut 00:16:37  That's one type of educational parenting. All of the person grows up knowing that to feel my emotions isn't right, I have to just get on with my work and I have to get good grades, or I have to be tough, or I have to be whatever my parents tell me I have to be. And then there's the other part, which is, yeah, there's a car accident. There's an abuse. There's a something that happens in one moment that changes the person's feeling of safety, and they shut it down. You know, we have this fight, flight freeze. The freeze means block it. And if I if I don't afterwards have the space and safety to then gently unfreeze that energy and release it. That might be frozen for a very long time.

Abdullah Boulad 00:17:23  Yes. Who can be the safety net? Is it always, the parents at home has to be them. Or who else in the surrounding of a child or a growing add. A young adult is important to be a surrounded by.

Petró Kohut 00:17:41  It really can be anybody.

Petró Kohut 00:17:43  You know, it depends who the person who the child can find safety in.

Abdullah Boulad 00:17:49  Yeah. So something comes into my mind, like boarding schools are very famous around the world, especially in higher, higher, earning, environments. So what happens to these children or young adults going to boarding school, being disconnected from their families and, and having to be in a completely new, or strange environment to them? what what are your thoughts about that concept?

Petró Kohut 00:18:20  Having not gone myself, I have a hard time knowing exactly what it's like. You know, I can take my information from friends who've gone or from films and things like this. But in general, I think if there's a structure within the boarding school that allows the child to have a connection where they can actually talk things, things through with somebody who might be able to be supportive, then I think it's great if that if that doesn't exist, maybe not so great. Yes. A lot of people that I've treated, the the pain that they have has actually made them go and be really successful in their lives.

Petró Kohut 00:19:00  You know, that workaholic ness of like, I'll just be great at what I do so that I don't have to feel the whatever I blocked growing up. Okay. Some amazing things happened in the world. I've often asked myself the question, hey, should I really try and fix this in somebody or help them heal? Yes. If that means that they might not, then go on and do these amazing things in the world. Now, my hope is those people, when they do heal, maybe the the workaholic ness changes, but what they've trained their whole lives to learn at being great at can then be done with an openness and a spaciousness and a care for the broader community, which means it's even better for the world. so going back to the boarding schools, maybe certain elements of that shutting down of the inner child's feelings and all of that, maybe it ends up making very productive, successful people in the world, but maybe who aren't actually happy inside.

Abdullah Boulad 00:20:05  And.

Petró Kohut 00:20:06  Kind to the people around them and other things that are really important.

Petró Kohut 00:20:10  Yeah. So it's a tricky one.

Abdullah Boulad 00:20:12  Yeah. No, I can I can understand that. is there from your experience with all the clients you have been working with in the past, a common factor or a common incidence in life which which could lead to such a disconnect? Or is it very individual how someone perceives it from from his own, experience.

Petró Kohut 00:20:39  And it's very individual. Very, very individual because some people go through really tough things, but they happen to have had an upbringing or just be maybe even born with certain qualities that allows them to see that challenge and face it and grow through it and then move bigger, become bigger. You know, I talk about what trauma is to me is a challenge that I couldn't overcome. You know, maybe the car came too quickly, or maybe there was a group of people I couldn't fend off or, you know, it was too much for me at that point in time. You know, a a challenge that comes that I can, I can get over is not a trauma.

Petró Kohut 00:21:26  It's it's something that I grew through. and I become bigger. And the next time something like that comes, I know I've done it before and I can get bigger and bigger and bigger and even a trauma. I think that's traumatic in the moment, but then is healed through repair and recognizing that in that moment I couldn't do anything. But I protected myself. I survived through it, and then I healed, and I've released all the fear that was blocked out in me, and I healed the traumatic side through some therapy or somatic experiencing or some conversation with the loved one. And then I grew because I realized that if that happened next time, I'm going to be more aware of it, and maybe I'm going to train in certain things that will make me more capable. But it's when the trauma isn't healed that the person stays feeling small and they're a victim of that trauma, rather than having digested it and processed it, and then.

Abdullah Boulad 00:22:17  So bringing up trauma into body connection, trauma and body will. How do you understand this connection is every traumatized person has a disconnect to their body, or is every and the other way around?

Petró Kohut 00:22:39  I used to think that working from the body up could help everybody.

Petró Kohut 00:22:43  And that was why I studied Rolfing. And Ida Rolf had this big philosophy of how she was doing basically some kind of psychotherapy on the person, but through the, through the changing of their connection with their body. In doing it for many years, I got to a place where I saw that, you know, many people had transformative experiences. Some people got up off the table straight back into the same pattern that they sat down, lay down on the table with. And I was like, well, did I do anything there? Yeah. And so that made me go into looking at somatic experiencing and studying that because I needed other tools. So some people, I think, close off parts of their body. Other people go fully into their body. You know, there are some dancers that are highly traumatized people with amazing connections to their body. So it's it's a very, interesting world. I don't that I don't really understand. And I'm always learning with every person that I see.

Abdullah Boulad 00:23:44  Yes. So talking about Rolfing, let's go a bit deeper, because you mentioned that now a couple times.

Abdullah Boulad 00:23:52  And, and that was like the origin which led then to multiple other, educations or further educations you went through. So where does Rolfing coming from and and what exactly is it? Can you explain what do you do in a session? how how is the outcome, how many sessions? what can you guide us through this process of Rolfing, please?

Petró Kohut 00:24:17  Sure. so it's it's a it's a method designed to help Reorganize the structural integrity of the of the human. So as we grow up, we learn to walk. We trip. We fall. We have surgeries. We learn skills. We dedicate ourselves to certain sports. All of those things shape us to be who are, who we are right now, sitting in front of each other. A role for looks at a person and says, okay, I'm gonna I see that the the knees are pointing inwards a little, the shoulders are dropped forward, the head's forward. What? We can sort of take the person apart a little bit and then say, okay, but where do I start? What do you what does this person need to have their first step to feel more integral, to feel more balanced.

Petró Kohut 00:25:05  And so we work with the the shoulders and the breathing and the neck. And then we work with the pelvis and the way that the pelvis is either really arched with the big lumbar lordosis, big curve in the lower back or really tucked under. So we find more neutral, more. How does somebody what's more neutral for that person. And then we do some movement work so they can embody what it's like to work with this newfound position of neutral, not thinking that they'll keep it forever, but thinking that it's an experience the brain learns. The brain's always feeling something new. It's taking on a new information. And then when we do that next movements, we can maybe choose from a broader category of possibilities because our brain has received more information. I often give this example of the violin player, like if I don't play the violin today, but if I started today, you'd all hate it. But after a year or two it would be all right. And after ten years, 20 years, it would be beautiful if I if I practiced every day right now, every day practicing, I'd be building neural connections between my hand and my brain and my hand and my brain and and the more highway I have, the more I can start to be more skillful and put my emotion into it, etc. so Rolfing is like learning to play the violin with your whole body.

Petró Kohut 00:26:26  It's like we touch and we move and we get you to explore and feel. And then each session breaks down and looks at certain aspects. You know, we don't think that it's you know, I can't in one session figure out all of your postural issues. I have to go somewhere, I have to do something, and then I have to let you have that experience. And then you live for a couple of weeks with that experience for a few days, and then we go to the next one and we look at the feet and how the feet working and the knees and how is that alignment and can you, can you push through the feet and can you flex and can your toes have mobility? When we do that with the whole body. They end up with a lot of information, and then they have a new awareness of what it's like to walk with all this information. And then that's an ability to be present with other people with more of that centered Her alignment. You know.

Abdullah Boulad 00:27:21  Interesting. I can imagine when you when you work with clients from the body up, they they will end up also, releasing some emotional elements to it.

Abdullah Boulad 00:27:38  Who are these specific areas in the body where you feel have, have, have a lot of effect on, on on some of the clients you work with?

Petró Kohut 00:27:48  Yeah. very often around the neck, through the chest, the heart. These places are.

Abdullah Boulad 00:27:55  Being tense in this fear.

Petró Kohut 00:27:57  Yeah. We're mammals. You know, we have certain muscles in the neck. We have muscles in the chest. We have muscles in the in the abdomen that are designed that if we're under attack, they will tense up and we will be protected. You know, we are the only mammal that walks with our whole front facing strangers. So most of the other ones are on all fours. And that's very easy from that position to protect even more. So yeah, when we start to say, okay, now let's open your neck and get movement here and let the person maybe comes with the head position like this. And we want to help them explore and experience what it's like to have the head more like this. Some people stand up off the table and they're like, oh, I can't stand up like this.

Petró Kohut 00:28:43  It would be too vulnerable. Everybody would look at me, you know, it's safer for me to be here, you know? And so I then work with them on that.

Abdullah Boulad 00:28:53  So is it correct that if is it correct when I assume that, Rolfing fixes kind of the scarves someone has experienced through his life?

Petró Kohut 00:29:05  Yes. But more than scars, just patterns. You know, when when you started to walk as a kid, the parents just go. Yeah. Nobody says, maybe let your shoulders draw up and let that leg swing through differently. And da da da da. We don't get corrected on the things we do. We just do them. And then we wonder why we have Sony's after 40 years, or 50 years or 60 years of doing those things. So those every all of our joint organizations should be kind of square through the middle of the joint. And if we have, you know, bow legs or knees dropping inwards and dropped arches of our feet, those joints will be pushing more on one side than the other.

Petró Kohut 00:29:49  And that means more wear and tear on one side, and not enough of action and pushing and releasing on the other side. And then we have discs that have problems after years. So it's about, creating the organization of the, of the line of the way that the force should move through those joints so that we have, less unhealthy degeneration and more just, I mean, we we're all aging. We're not going to get younger forever at all.

Abdullah Boulad 00:30:19  I mean, longevity is, is moving fast.

Petró Kohut 00:30:23  Yeah. Yeah. But, we can do it better. Some people do it better than others. You know. And why is that? You know, because we can organize ourselves better emotionally, too.

Abdullah Boulad 00:30:36  I wonder how is the body affecting our emotions, like how our posture in this case affects our mental health or feelings? Or is it the other way around, or both ways?

Petró Kohut 00:30:51  I think both ways. Yeah. For sure. I mean, when I feel sad, you know, do I want to take really deep breaths? No.

Petró Kohut 00:30:59  I want to be a little bit more on the exhale. You know, so I stay in that place. But if I've been sad for years, maybe then that's a pattern that my ribs have learned that that's the normal thing for my stomach and my ribs and my diaphragm to do. And the organs have of adjusted to that limited space. And maybe I've also been sitting at a desk and maybe riding a bike to get over things at the end of the day and all of those postures and so far and it's all about this.

Abdullah Boulad 00:31:27  What practical elements or and daily life would you suggest to avoid this negative impact on your posture and body and body? Mind connection.

Petró Kohut 00:31:40  Move it or lose it. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:31:43  It's being active.

Petró Kohut 00:31:43  Explore. Be active. You know, I don't necessarily think that any one activity is the thing. You know, I know yogis who take it too far and injure themselves. And but I know cyclists and bodybuilders and, you know, people who go to the gym. It's all good.

Petró Kohut 00:32:01  I think as it was, it Buddha spoke, you know, it's the middle way. You know, you do a little bit of everything and you sort of learn that you can be flexible and strong and adaptable and look at the places where you don't want to look and strengthen those.

Abdullah Boulad 00:32:18  Yes, and I could also think about change what you do regularly. So not to stick into one routine, but maybe after a while implement something new so the body gets more challenged in its form and and being. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Petró Kohut 00:32:36  I mean look for what you're really terrible at and get a little less terrible at that. That's good. And that's hard. It's hard to do because we don't like to do terrible at things.

Abdullah Boulad 00:32:47  How how can someone do someone? How can someone do this? if I stand in front of a mirror, look at myself. What should I look at exactly? And how can I understand the patterns of of being not in embodied?

Petró Kohut 00:33:05  It's hard to do ourselves. You know, even for myself, I go to see somebody And feel their hands on me, and then learn about myself and then learn.

Petró Kohut 00:33:16  Okay, wow. I didn't even realize I was doing that. I was just living me as me doing the things. And I'm out and I'm doing so it's about bringing that attention inwards, and some people can do it through a good yoga practice. If you have a really good teacher and they guide you through and they help you learn what you're doing, because if you're doing it with the same pattern, you've always done it. You're probably just reinforcing those patterns, same as going to the gym and building muscles. If you're building it around the pattern of the shoulders and the head, then you're going to build strength around that pattern. So you kind of need to have somebody encouraging you to feel something new. And that can be through so many different types of therapy, but generally, generally not just a massage, something that just relaxes you. Maybe it isn't giving you information. It's wonderful. And I did it for many, many years and I love to go and receive it. But you have to go to somebody who's going to challenge your pattern and say, how about trying this for a moment? You know, in a in a way that your nervous system feels safe to explore this new thing.

Abdullah Boulad 00:34:19  So it's like, or I would compare it like it's difficult to do a hard surgery on yourself. so you need someone who, who who does it for you or with you? Yeah. With your support.

Petró Kohut 00:34:31  I mean, I, I like to say to people I'm not the one fixing you. You know, because I've worked on enough people that didn't let me help them, that were tight and were unwilling and unable, or I couldn't meet them in a place safely enough for them to feel safe enough to drop the tension. You know our bodies. If you if you've ever come to like a somebody who's been renovating your house and they have these solid shoulders and you, you know, give them a pat on the shoulder and you feel like it's just cement that person given a general anaesthetic. It's putty. It's soft that that the way I understand that is that. And I could be wrong. Maybe somebody can post a reply to say if I'm getting this wrong. But it's the way we know ourselves.

Petró Kohut 00:35:23  The way I wake up in the morning and I know myself has a certain contraction in my fascia, my muscles, and that means I look like who I look. I don't look and walk around looking like this all the time. Yeah, some people do because they've done it so often that they've just fixed like that, and then they wake up in the morning and that's how they know who they are. Same with the shoulders. But if under general anesthetic, it's just soft putty, then who is it that's doing it? You know. And so when I'm working with somebody and they're saying, yeah, I have a knot here, please fix my knot, I'm like, all right, well, it's your knot. It's your not I can point the finger there, but you're the one that's going to have to let it go, you know. And if and I try and do it in a way that helps, is gentle enough and direct enough that they feel safe enough to say, oh, maybe I can let this go.

Petró Kohut 00:36:18  And then their brain says, wow, I don't have to be like this all the time. Yes. And maybe that means I don't have to feel stressed all the time, because when I'm feeling here, I feel like, oh, I can exhale and I'm not stressed and I don't feel like I'm being attacked. And so the body holds things, but it's you have to connect to all the levels to help them.

Abdullah Boulad 00:36:40  But it cannot be corrected from the body side. So, if I think like the psychosomatic, effects were more the mental side effects, the body, we have we have to work on both levels. I assume.

Petró Kohut 00:37:00  Yeah. Sometimes, I've been amazed that sometimes just doing body work, somebody shifts and then they let go of something they've been carrying without even knowing what that was. And they just decide that now they're, what, 40 something years old and their shoulders feel much better like this. And maybe a tear came during the session, but they're not even sure why that tear came.

Petró Kohut 00:37:21  Or maybe it was just a really deep exhalation that suddenly felt like they could put a weight down that they'd been carrying. Now that person doesn't really have to go back and dig up all their past. They've done something that makes them realize that they're in 2025 and their shoulders are down, and they're good with that. Now that that's wonderful. When that happens, sometimes we have to do the other side of the thing as well and sort of have a chat about, you know, if they come back two weeks later and their shoulders are back up like this, then we say, okay, so what is what is that like? And we do the somatic approach to get them to notice it and then maybe go into unwinding a little bit of whatever they've lived through.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:02  So what you try to do is to connect to the body and to release certain area, which is certainly have is having an effect on releasing also mental stress or distress, which is beautiful. But this also you mentioned a couple times now somatic experiencing somatic work.

Abdullah Boulad 00:38:24  what led you from Rolfing go into the somatic experiencing part and how is it supporting your Rolfing work?

Petró Kohut 00:38:33  Yeah, I heard about it many times. Many of my Rolfing teachers directed us to books about somatic experiencing and in reading Waking the Tiger, which is Peter Levine's first book. I really connected to the work. I connected to what it was. Then I went to a workshop and had an experience in the workshop, and that changed how I was. And I started being more sensitive to the the way the nervous system shows up of the person. That was many years ago. But with that one training already, my bodywork sessions were different because I wasn't pushing the client. If I noticed that their face got a bit flushed and their breathing changed, I would back off and maybe do something else that could help them feel a bit safer and then go back and touch again. And then we had these big emotional releases occurring, on the table. Yeah. What actually happened was that a few weeks in, after that training, somebody started to have an emotional release and they started speaking to me in Spanish about what was happening.

Petró Kohut 00:39:45  And my Spanish was good, but it wasn't good enough to follow her. And I had to say, okay, hang on, stop there. Can you tell me what you were saying? And I felt so shocked and out of control myself with what was happening on the table that At I. She was fine, but I didn't feel like I was able to really help her afterwards, even doing the same things that I was doing. People didn't have these emotional releases anymore. And I put that down to that. That all came back when I went to train in Somatic Experiencing. It all came back because I felt safer in the work myself, but it really showed me that I need to be safe. Firstly, I need to be safe in myself. And when I learned about these ways to track the nervous system of another person, I have to also be really connected to my own nervous system and how safe I feel and how grounded I feel, so I can be a safe place for the other person to have an experience that is a little vulnerable.

Abdullah Boulad 00:40:52  I really can relate to providing the space. That's that's what therapy should be about. it's it's like, helping someone to get to the water, but it has to drink. They have to drink themselves. When you do somatic experiencing with someone, how does the session look like?

Petró Kohut 00:41:12  Kind of like this. We sit across from each other in some way that we feel comfortable. And the way I, the way I structure the first couple of sessions is, is thinking about us as animals. We're we're mammals. Mammals need senses of safety. You know, if you're if you're a dog, you'd have to smell the corners of this room and maybe pee in a couple of places and find out where there's some water to feel like you're you're safe. And then you can curl up and lie on the sofa and be okay and maybe even learn new tricks and maybe do something that's challenging. Now, when somebody comes to me, they normally have things that they'd like help with, and so I need to make sure that their animal feels safe and that can start from getting to know who I am.

Petró Kohut 00:42:00  Me explaining a little bit about the work. Them telling me about what they've brought. Not going into the heavy stuff. Straight away you know that for the heavy stuff, you need to feel really, really, really, really safe. And that maybe comes after getting to know me 3 or 4 times. Some people want to bring it up in the first time. And in my, my, my work is to say, okay, maybe you've mentioned that, but notice what you're feeling in the body. We do a little bit of work on that piece right there, but we slow it down so that they get a sense that even if they talk about difficult things, they're safe in this room. You know, it's really about if we track our nervous systems. And I'm feeling kind of excited. I have to be aware of that. Because if I let that get too much, I can shut down. That excitement can get overwhelming. Same with sadness and fear and other things that we might have lived through there, might be connected to certain memories.

Petró Kohut 00:42:59  So I really start with building a rapport, making people feel safe, talking about stories of animals and talking about different metaphors that help them get pictures that might help them. I talk about the senses and get them to notice their senses, get to notice the temperature of the skin and the touch of their clothes, the sounds they can hear. And, with that, they start to put words to things that they're picking up, which later becomes really handy because we need to use those words to stay present to the senses. I kind of think of the senses as being the anchor of a boat. You know, we have five anchors that can help us stay present to where we are. I can see where I am, I can hear where I am, I can touch, smell, taste. Now, if I'm talking about something that's very troubling from my past. I can completely lose touch with reality very easily. I can go into a sobbing, shaking mess very quickly. My anchors helped me stay present.

Petró Kohut 00:44:11  You know, I have to have really good anchors, and I have to practice using them to stay present. And my work is the somatic experiencing practitioner is to make sure that if they're talking about something that I can see is difficult for them, that I actually say, okay, we're going to interrupt what you do, what you're talking about. Notice what's in your body right now. Notice the chair and notice the feeling in the body. That sensation of tightness in the guts. The tightness in the jaw, the shakiness. Okay. And we pause, talking. We put the conversation up on the shelf. We say we'll come back to that later. Maybe even next session. We don't have to take the Band-Aid off in one go. But notice something has been awakened already. Stay with that. Stay with the room. Stay with your anchors. And maybe I've set up anchors that feel safe. Like the touch of the cloth that they're wearing. Maybe. I've talked. We've talked about the painting, and they've enjoyed the golden color of the painting.

Petró Kohut 00:45:11  So the senses keep them here, even though they're. They've brought something up that might be really scary. The senses keep them here. And my job is to, like, really keep them, you know, engaged with me and the present moment. Because anything that has a beginning has an ending. But when we get locked on something that sometimes that's that endings further away, when we can stay present to the anchors that we have, that actually that dissipates that energy of exciting and the fear and the tension and the heat and the body. It passes quite quickly, but we have to stay present. You know, if we keep feeding the, the, the dialogue in our head about the trauma that was happening, if we keep thinking about that and thinking about it and thinking about it, we're just pouring more fuel on the fire and the body will have even more reaction. Or we might just shut down completely. So it's a delicate dance with somebody else's nervous system keeping them present, basically, so that the the thing they lived through can stop being something that's still happening and can start to be a memory of what happened many years ago.

Petró Kohut 00:46:28  It's that's what we do in this work. We we change the trauma being something I'm still living through and make it able to be a memory in the past.

Abdullah Boulad 00:46:37  So I understand that safety is key when you work with clients somatic experiencing, Rolfing and releasing, trauma or or or, certain types of emotions and feelings. When do you feel there is the right moment to go deeper? Because there is the sensitivity of of overwhelming versus allowing processing?

Petró Kohut 00:47:04  Yeah. it's a dance. It's a dance that, I often ask the person. You know, we once we've built rapport and talked about different structures and got them in touch with their senses. And we've worked on some very small pieces. You know, I often start with innocuous, bothersome things in their life. You know, some guy who always takes your car parking space. small things that are bothersome, but make me get angry or sad or bothered. We can work with those. That's a great way to start. And then they have an experience that even that fires them up, and they have a body reaction, and then that passes, and then they feel better and they feel like, wow, that was exciting.

Petró Kohut 00:47:53  That was interesting because I felt this experience, but now I feel like I'm back. So once they've had that a couple of times, then I say, okay, you've mentioned you've got this situation with X and Y and Z, which would you like to bring up? And maybe let's start with the easiest one. And then we just as that dialogue comes, often the easiest one will lead to the most difficult one organically in the same moment, because we tend to have links between the situations in our lives.

Abdullah Boulad 00:48:28  And you play the dance also between body and talking the mind, to process, what comes up? I understand.

Petró Kohut 00:48:39  Yeah. Yeah. often I'll say, okay, we've done some somatic experiencing. Let's do some Rolfing. You know, we get them on the table and they start to learn about their body and move and explore. And then with that experience, they're more connected and have more ground. And when they stand up, they feel more stable. So the nervous system feels more stable.

Petró Kohut 00:49:05  And with that, more stability. Maybe they sit down and they say, actually, I'd like to talk about this other thing. And then we go deeper.

Abdullah Boulad 00:49:12  Yes. So we talked about trauma here and the connection to Rolfing and, and somatic experiencing, which is known for, for trauma, part of a trauma therapy. what type of other conditions, you, you work with? What is the majority of conditions? Most clients would come to you for your work.

Petró Kohut 00:49:35  Most people come through pain. Most people come because physical pain. Physical pain or, could be emotional pain, you know? Anxiety is a big one now that they come through so pain that they're really struggling to get beyond what's interesting and kind of difficult is that either side of who come. So whether it's coming, they're coming because of the anxiety or because of the shoulder pain, it tends to be that we need all my guns, all my tools. You know, I think that the person with the anxiety is, is really benefited if they go through some Rolfing sessions, the person who's coming in with the shoulder pain, often just in a conversation before they get on the table, maybe after the first or second or third session already, as they're speaking about how the weeks have been between sessions, they can connect with that sensation.

Petró Kohut 00:50:38  My shoulder is better, but now I feel tightness in my neck or tightness here. And then we do somatic experiencing in the interview process and then something comes up, and then they shed a tear and they feel lighter and they say, okay, great, we've done that. Let's come to the table and continue. They come from all kinds of things. I mean, Rolfing has the benefit that when it really flourished in the 70s and 60s, it was part of what they call the human potential movement in, in the West Coast, in San Francisco, or in Big Sur and Iselin. Okay. that hub of the human potential movement was this place of, like, if you want to reach your potential as a human, you go there and you do these different therapies and you grow, you know, and that's what I love the most is when somebody comes to me and they're like, I would love to be better in my world. And I noticed that I'm held back by these fears and this pain and these patterns.

Petró Kohut 00:51:37  So I'm like, great. If that openness is there, it's the easiest place to begin because they're ready for anything and they're ready. They're honestly wanting to be helped to look inwards. if somebody comes in with a tightness and a stiff neck, it's kind of a distraction to the work. You know, I have to focus on that pain all the time until that's better, before we can actually go with the other stuff.

Abdullah Boulad 00:52:06  I imagine you have been working with a lot of clients with their struggles and pains. So what has touched you the most or had the most effect on on these clients?

Petró Kohut 00:52:19  It's a it's a beautiful experience to watch everybody find some shift in their life. You know, as a roll through, it's beautiful to watch them shed physical patterns that they've had. I worked with one guy and we did pure Rolfing sessions, and I thought I was a complete failure while I did them because I he was one of these guys. I did the work. He stood up and he stood up in the same little man pattern that he had before he got on the table, and I'd work on the table and I'd get him to experience and move.

Petró Kohut 00:52:52  And I thought, okay, that's the movement. I think he's been lacking. And he'd stand up and he'd be this small guy again. And then, you know, we finished the ten sessions that we worked together for and, and luckily I saw him on a train. It was like six months later, and I saw him on a train, and he was bigger and broader and his shoulders and taller, and he had a new suit on. And I went up and saw him and we chatted. He left his partner, he changed his job. He he just filled in. But it took time. It took time. So I was really that for me was like, I hope some of that was about me, what I did, because I would I would love to have been a part of that transformation. and I think I was, but who knows really. then there's other ones that are really. Really deep. Really deep. A lot of people who've had very difficult things happen to them.

Petró Kohut 00:53:55  when somebody is able to, to feel safe enough to mention something or to to let themselves remember something that has held them prisoner for their whole life. And I can be there just it's like there's no sound in the room, and we're all just. It's magic happening. It's. It's really magic happening that the person is able to have something come up, but they're not running away from it anymore, and they recognize it as being something that is from their past and maybe see it from another perspective, even, and see that there was something else happening at the same time. you know, rather than be locked on that one image that's haunted them their whole life, they're a different person in the next word that comes out of their mouth. And for me, that's just gold. I can't. It's the most beautiful thing to witness.

Abdullah Boulad 00:54:58  Yeah. Very beautiful. And I know the impact you have on on multiple clients. I know I have, I have here in front of me. one of the feedbacks I received from from a client without asking.

Abdullah Boulad 00:55:15  he just sent it actually this week, a couple of days ago, and, and was very thankful for. I will read it. What he wrote, to me. No. It's so Petra is such an unreal person. Man, therapist, you name it. I can't explain how much he has helped me through a tough time in my life. His voice, his patience and direct ability to say, stop what is in your body? What is your body telling you? What do you feel and where do you feel it? Such an amazing part or weapon to the balance program?

Petró Kohut 00:55:55  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 00:55:56  How do you feel he was hearing this?

Petró Kohut 00:56:00  Yeah. I'm touched. I'm really thankful that I can be useful for people. I mean, it's the reason why I do this is to try to to for me to know that that man is now in the world and somewhere more able to be present when he's sad or angry or anything that comes up for him. He can be there in his center. Feel it.

Petró Kohut 00:56:27  Allow it. Not run away from it and not defend. And I think he will be. He is already a bigger part of his world because more of him is able to be in his world. The same for me in the work that it's allowed me to not run from things that I would shy from. So I face those fears. I recognize they're not going to end me. You know, when a when a difficult feeling comes up, often people block it because they think, if I felt this feeling, it would end me. You know, if I, if I really cried, I would never stop. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that sentence. If I really cried, I don't think I'd ever stop. They always stop. But, you know, when we build that safety and they allow, it's often just 1 or 2 tears, and it's it's changed. It's not rocket science. I have this beautiful phrase that a teacher of mine said. It's like, it's not complicated, but it's not easy.

Petró Kohut 00:57:31  You know, we live in a world. And I said, and I have to be inside myself and not trying to give solutions to the person and as a man. That's what I want to do. I want to fix problems. But I have to be there and say, okay, you feel this, so let's feel it. I'm here with you. Just feel it when they allow themselves to feel it. Suddenly they're not afraid of it.

Abdullah Boulad 00:57:56  So they start trusting more in themselves. And this is how how the necessary tools and the important tools, they bring a take with them home and and help them through their life. Yeah. Yeah. Talking about taking someone through life, I know you. You have a young daughter, and you're you're you're a father. You're a parent. You and your wife. What do you do in this world today? in your micro world, at home, within your family, to avoid trauma or to optimize the outcome of your child's childhood.

Petró Kohut 00:58:39  I think one of the biggest shifts is that I stay away from too many distractions now.

Petró Kohut 00:58:45  You know, I used to want to know what's happening in the world more. Now it's enough with my work and my family to just be focused on my small world, because that helps me be more centered when I have to. When I go out and learn a lot of stuff about what's happening in politics and in the world. That's a lot to carry. So I choose to go there less now. So that's something I do for myself to feel more able to be there, because she's a little amazing angel and demon, and she's poking at my buttons all the time. So. And I'm not a perfect result of a human. I'm. I'm human. So I can get sad and angry and touched. And what what I think will help her grow up really well is that I will. I am committed to always repair when everything when any interruption in love happens. You know, if I get angry and yell, then I go and I make sure I repair, whether that's with my friend or my wife or my child.

Petró Kohut 00:59:50  and I think that knowing that she will grow up knowing that her dad's wonderful, but he's. No, he's not perfect. I think that's important.

Abdullah Boulad 01:00:01  Yeah, I heard you saying now the repairing multiple times through our conversation. So repairing is the key, especially with children, but maybe also with with with adults with in in, in, any kind of relationship.

Petró Kohut 01:00:15  Yeah. And and the connection to the body, which I keep doing. I keep going for sessions for myself so I can stay connected to my body. And I could do things like qigong and yoga so that I'm present with my body. That helps me know when I have to repair, Yeah. Yeah. I can stay in touch with myself. And I didn't mention one thing but I have a men's circle that I am part of. And that's a huge piece for me because it's a place where every week for a couple of hours we sit with anywhere between 5 and 20 men and we talk. We share. We hold a space.

Petró Kohut 01:00:56  We hold a safe, confidential space for each other to be present. Because I recognize, like I said, with the fishing nets and the women with the fishing nets, we miss that. So I had to create that. And now I have that. And it's a beautiful part of my life that helps me every week. Stay in touch with, okay, where am I? Where am I going? Well, and where am I not so well?

Abdullah Boulad 01:01:17  How does it look like exactly? It's like, you do a circle and everyone talks about his week or. Well, how do you do this? Practically?

Petró Kohut 01:01:26  Yeah. so it's something that I created, but I don't lead it all the time. It's we share the leadership. If somebody feels like they're moved to lead, they do. We have certain standards and rules, confidentiality being the biggest one of the standards. So we have a safe place to be together. And yeah we will do little check ins. We'll do some movement work first to be in our bodies and move from the state of being in the world to being in what we call the man cave.

Petró Kohut 01:01:55  This is the basement in my studio. and from that place, after doing some movement, we do a little round of check in of like, what's actually what do I need to share? Yeah, not just what am I doing, but what what I have this available moment of confidential space with other men who are ready to listen to me. So how would I benefit most sharing with these men? And that's pushing the edge every time. I can push my edge a little further and be vulnerable. And if I can do that and recognize I just was vulnerable and nothing bad happened and everybody said, yeah, I feel that way too. And I'm like, wow, it's not. I'm not alone. Yes. So a little part of me feels like I have this circle of men that understand me and have heard me and have been with me now for almost nine years. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:02:45  So talking about clients and disorders issues, how do you protect yourself from all this? We discussed few, few, few elements like your circle, man circle.

Abdullah Boulad 01:03:00  how do you set your boundaries and what do you do to stay in balance all the time?

Petró Kohut 01:03:07  Well, I accept that I won't be in balance all the time. So my self-love and acceptance that sometimes I'll be reactive and defensive or whatever, that's. That's a big piece. Acceptance. and also the acceptance comes from the place that I know how I would like to live and how I love to live, and the relationships I love to have. And so I remembering what I would love to have, can then come from, oh, I'm getting defensive here. I can acknowledge it, apologize for it, and move past it rather than defending it and having to be right. And so the self-care of getting therapy myself and having supervision. So I've got help with clients that I might be seeing then having body work sessions and simply, you know, the limiting of the social media on my phone, listening to good books when I'm driving the car, not being too engaged in stuff that is difficult to hold, but otherwise filling myself up with stuff that's inspiring so that I'm rich with that inspiration and I can be better in my day to day.

Abdullah Boulad 01:04:23  I love what you said about the intention and and intention is, for me, always like an important thing to do in life, not just for what? What is my life vision, but also an intention for every conversation. I have intention when I, when I'm with my wife, what am what outcomes do I want with my children? So I think many people don't think about this micro intentions in their life and with individual people. And if if I would think about it, just this week, I refreshed my intention what I want to have with my wife, because sometimes life happens and then you, you go on autopilot and then you get stressed and then you say something maybe you wouldn't have said if you are more grounded in that moment. So refreshing. The intention is is key. And I love that.

Petró Kohut 01:05:22  Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Abdullah Boulad 01:05:23  I have a last question for you. If there is one thing you would give to the world, to every human in the world, what would you tell them? What would you want them to do in their life?

Petró Kohut 01:05:41  Maybe the knowledge that, like we said before.

Petró Kohut 01:05:46  It might not be easy to face these things, but it's quite simple. Well, you know, it doesn't have to be complicated. And it doesn't have to be a really big thing. You know, it's it's the next step. And if I'm willing to face myself and what comes up, then everybody around me benefits. You know, so to know if it is simple and if we're reaching out for some kind of help, whether it be the women in the fishnet mending circle or whether it's Or nah. Or the balance. Or that those small steps make such a big difference. You know. And life. Life can be quite beautiful. You know, I really believe heaven isn't somewhere we go after we die. Heaven is here when we are honest with the people around us. When we're not hiding who we are, when we're respectful to our parents. You know kind of what they say in the Bible. It's kind of how it is here, but it's not like it's after we die, we get there.

Petró Kohut 01:06:58  It's like actually here some people are in hell walking down the street and you see them, you see it on their face, you know, and I can be in hell if I'm, like, unable to process something and get out of something. But if I can have support and reach for it and grow through something, then wow, how beautiful life can be. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad 01:07:19  Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you. I enjoyed our conversation today. And thank you for being here. and I think what you what you just shared has been, valuable to a lot of people. I hope they take take on this. hints and little hints to, to do some little change. maybe it or big for them in their life. and I want to thank you also for all the work you have been doing for for the balance. And, I know, and I speak with many of them, and, not just this one, ex client who has been with us, but also many others. And they appreciated work a lot.

Abdullah Boulad 01:08:06  Thank you for for all your work. Thank you.

Petró Kohut 01:08:09  Thank you. Thank you for creating this space and this thing that we all get to help more people within. So. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks.