Living a Life in Balance

HAPPINESS Happening NOW: How Integrative Psychotherapy Aligns Mind, Body & Spirit for a Fulfilled Life

• Abdullah Boulad • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Gita Chaudhuri, Head of Psychotherapy at The Balance RehabClinic, breaks down the importance of understanding our emotions and the role they play in signaling our needs. She explores how modern society has developed a low tolerance for discomfort, leading many to suppress unpleasant feelings rather than embrace them as a natural part of life.

In this episode, she shares insights into the mind-body connection, explaining how true healing requires an integrated approach beyond just addressing symptoms. Through this discussion, she offers a fresh perspective on finding balance, fulfillment, and lasting happiness—not as a distant goal but as something to be cultivated in the present moment.

About Gita Chaudhuri: With over 20 years of experience, Gita has dedicated her career to psychotherapy and counselling, offering compassionate, expert care in Mallorca since 2002. Her holistic approach integrates diverse therapeutic disciplines, emphasizing the deep connection between mental, emotional, and physical well-being. As a Head Therapist at The Balance and a lecturer in systemic therapy, she is committed to empowering clients and sharing her expertise to support lasting transformation.


[00:01:29] - Gita’s Journey to Becoming a Therapist

[00:04:22] - Understanding Childhood Trauma

[00:05:30] - Support Systems and Sibling Connection

[00:06:17] - Life Experience vs. Clinical Education

[00:07:57] - Overcoming Trauma & Finding Resilience

[00:09:08] - The Modern Mental Health Crisis

[00:10:55] - Digital Connections vs. Real Emotion

[00:13:49] - Disconnection from the Body & Emotions

[00:15:10] - How Tech Impacts Emotional Awareness

[00:16:52] - The Pressure to Perform in Today’s Society

[00:18:46] - Emotional Regulation in a Digital Age

[00:20:07] - Attachment Theory & Emotional Growth

[00:24:03] - What Therapy Really Offers

[00:26:59] - Breaking the Stigma Around Therapy

[00:31:02] - What is Integrative Psychotherapy?

[00:34:37] - Building a Holistic Therapy Toolbox

[00:44:02] - Understanding the Nature of Trauma

[00:50:56] - Attachment in Family & Relationships

[00:57:10] - How to Navigate Narcissistic Dynamics

[01:06:22] - Managing Obsessive Overthinking

[01:11:25] - Eating Disorders & Social Media Pressure

[01:17:33] - Supporting Loved Ones with Eating Disorders

[01:21:29] - Defining Happiness vs. Fulfillment

[01:33:28] - Final Wisdom: The Power of Self-Awareness


You can also watch the full episode on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDnpBYM-g48


For further mental health information and support, visit The Balance RehabClinic website: https://balancerehabclinic.com/
 
Follow Gita Chaudhuri: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gita-chaudhuri-7235611b/

Follow Abdullah Boulad:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdullahboulad/
https://www.instagram.com/abdullahboulad/
 
You can order Abdullah’s book, ‘Living A Life In Balance’, here:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0BC9S5TCF
 
Follow The Balance RehabClinic:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/thebalancerehabclinic/
https://www.instagram.com/thebalancerehabclinic/

Gita Chaudhuri 00:00:00  Emotions are telling us something about our needs, you know? Or even if we have unpleasant emotions, they are so important they have a function. People learn more and more. I have to be good. I have to feel good. I have to be in a good state. There is less and less tolerance for unpleasant feelings. We are more than our body and what we feel. We are much more. Don't you have this sense yourself? Happiness is not happening in the future. It's now.

Abdullah Boulad  00:00:28  Welcome to the Living a Life and Balance podcast. My name is Abdullah Abdullah. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Geeta Chowdhury, clinical psychologist and director of psychotherapy at The balance. In this episode, we spoke about the growing impact of technology on our mental health. What integrative psychotherapy really is and when it's time to seek help. We discussed how to deal with couples and family dynamics, including narcissistic Personality types and how to help a loved one with an eating disorder.

Abdullah Boulad  00:01:04  You will also learn about the nature of obsessive overthinking. How trauma is related to childhood attachment, and more philosophical topics like how to live a happy and fulfilled life. I hope you will enjoy. What motivated you in the first place? To become a therapist and do what you do today?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:01:29  Yeah, actually a good question. yeah. Well, I, I would like to start in my childhood. I experienced a lot of stress, fear, trauma. My parents both come from a, from a background with a lot of trauma. And I was always trying to understand what is going on. Why? why is there so much tension in the house? Why is everybody so kind of stressed and so fragile and unstable. And I started to read books, actually, psychological books, when I was pretty young and I, and I found, wow, there is someone who describes those things and it's, it's, And people are going through I'm not the only one going through similar things. And, and I learned so much about, children and how they need to grow up.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:02:20  And that was actually really helping me. when I was maybe 10 or 12, I started reading those books. Wow. Later on, I wanted to be other things, like an actress and a typical and a fashion designer and, you know, like all these kind of things. But then when I, when I, when I finished school and I wanted to study, I started to be interested again in psychology and thought like, it's so fascinating. I wanted to learn about life and how people, you know, work, how humanity works, actually. And I was a little bit between medicine and philosophy and law, and I found everything interesting. And then I thought, I take psychology. This has to do with everything and everybody. So you know. So that was that was it. And then I noticed I'm really good in listening to people, understanding people. You know, maybe what you would call the typical empath, you know. And now I understand why. Because already in my childhood, I learned to listen well and to check how the situation.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:03:22  How's everybody feeling in order to stay safe myself. So I think I developed this talent to be a therapist, you know? And this is actually what what made me kind of continue this career. And, and then it was also so interesting for me to learn how to help people. You know, when they suffer because I, experience a lot of helplessness. When I was younger and also I saw people around me were so helpless. And the access for psychotherapy was very different back then than than it is now. So I thought like, everybody should be able to, you know, find help and talk about their emotions and like really get this understanding about their own kind of history, biography and situation in order to become more kind of self-managing again. You know what I mean? So yeah. So this was this became really a passion. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad  00:04:22  I mean, yeah, thank you for for sharing that. So it was very in a, in an early stage of your life where you realized there has been something going on around you which is not which is not okay.

Abdullah Boulad  00:04:35  at the age of ten, did you realize there has been trauma or now you're naming it?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:04:40  Of course, I wouldn't call it trauma, but what I saw was a lot of stress or tension, maybe, and fear. I myself, I, went through a lot of fear, and I felt like this cannot be it. I mean, this cannot be normal, you know? Like, Yeah. But of course, I didn't understand what trauma is. But I did learn through these books. okay. They are, you know, relations that are interconnections between, you know, how parents feel and what how they can educate their children and what they can give to their children and how we pass on, trauma and stress that I did understand.

Abdullah Boulad  00:05:19  Yeah, certainly. So what you did, you you you went into learning and understanding by yourself without support from the outside, like, by any people or any guidance.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:05:30  Not so much. I mean, my my elder sisters, I think they were, support, you know, all my siblings.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:05:36  I think it was good that we were, you know, kind of sticking together. And I also learned through this. We need community. We cannot be alone. my parents couldn't be very supportive, but my. But, like, having peers, let's say, having this kind of companionship of my my siblings. I think that really helped. And then of course, later in school and the teachers and then. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad  00:05:59  Do you think or do you believe that what happened to you made you like, a better therapist today? And how would you compare this to someone who purely would have gone through an academic career to become a therapist?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:06:17  I think, I think it made me, be a good therapist. knowing what people are talking about when they, you know, when they have depression or when they have anxieties or when they, don't know how to manage their life. I think it's different if you know these things by book or if you really experience them some themselves. That is one thing. So I it's easy for me to relate with people who tend to talk about their problems, to relate emotionally, not just cognitively, but also I think really.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:06:52  And this took me a while to understand. I now I think my trauma or my difficult childhood, whatever you want to call it, made me very resilient also and taught me so much about life instead of breaking me or something. You know, I really believe that trauma and all kind of problems, can make you very strong and you can grow with, with difficult situations. And this is actually something that I also always try to, pass on to my clients, you know. so, yeah. So, like, in both ways or in two ways, I think it made me it helped me to become a good therapist. Yes, yes.

Abdullah Boulad  00:07:36  We will get into trauma more in detail a little bit later. But what helped you to overcome this? Was it purely the informative information Side, or have you had other activities therapies later on throughout your your life?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:07:57  well, I think what helped me in the beginning was the, the insight that I wasn't alone and that people are writing books about these things, you know, that helped me.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:08:04  Not so much the information itself, maybe, but the fact that I felt like I'm not alone. And later I learned how important that is. We are social beings and we need to to feel like we are, you know, people see me and feel me and hear me. And even though these were people from books, you know, I felt more seen and heard. That definitely helped.

Abdullah Boulad  00:08:26  Me to feel connected to something, which is not unique.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:08:30  Exactly.

Abdullah Boulad  00:08:31  Isolating?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:08:32  Yes. And, and I think also so many other people in my life that I met, I connected with, helped me kind of, you know, finding myself. And in my case, that wasn't necessarily a therapist. but these were like other people, you know, like teachers or important, like friends, even animals. Sometimes you connect with animals and you feel like really? Okay, there is this acknowledgement, there is this recognition going on. There is this deep, pure connection unconditionally. So these things really helped me finding myself very nice.

Abdullah Boulad  00:09:08  when you look today out into the world and what's happening and, you can see and read everywhere, we are in a mental health crisis. And, there are a lot of myth or ideas. What is causing this and how we can get out of it. What is your opinion? What is going on there, and why are people suffering today?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:09:32  Yeah, it's such an interesting question, Abdullah. I mean, you know, of course we have this climate crisis. there's a there are financial crises, we have wars. But this was all the times and all the time. All of the times these things have happened, you know. So I personally believe and not not just me personally or others, that, the development, in the Western world or in our societies regarding technology is so fast and, and it kind of, you know, we stop relating with each other on a, on a real emotional level. Everything is becoming more and more virtual, you know, and even already for little kids.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:10:17  And I think that is a huge problem. So what happens is we, we lack real attachment and attunement as an, you know, emotional connection, a feeling like you can really relate, with what I feel and you know, how to contain it and how to address it and how to and so on and so on. And this immediate instant response on a on an emotional level is kind of lacking in the modern world. And also it's very fast and it's overstimulating and it's kind of confusing, actually, from a neurobiological or psychological perspective.

Abdullah Boulad  00:10:55  Many people feel they are connected through our digital devices, social media and so on. we know today, we are going through maybe an adjustment period of or phase of humanity with using technology and how how we connect. The I would compare this in two different ways. on one side we have the connection through digital elements, and I feel it's mainly cognitive related. Yes. What do you think when we sit now, like we we do face to face, there are much more feelings, elements.

Abdullah Boulad  00:11:36  I feel you much better than if I would see you through a screen. I smell you, I have much more senses I can activate. To to experience this conversation with you.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:11:47  And and I agree with you. And so many people say it. And also, you know, myself, I mean we can communicate so much easier through technology. That's true. Right? But, you know, like, for example, your son, when he was three, he could not really connect with you on the phone. That's what what kids don't know how to do. You know, they need this in, like, this, kind of direct contact, right? What? What you said, like, the energy and using their senses. So that is how they learn. So you grew up maybe with real connections, and now your brain knows how to do it virtually or, you know, using technology. but still, even for us as adults, it's it's different. so exactly what you're saying we need to use our sensors and even also the body.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:12:40  With very little children, you connect physically. You cannot just say, hey, it's all okay. You don't need to cry. You know, you give the baby a hug, you take them, the baby feels you. All the cells are getting activated when when a baby is is getting hugged. We, you know, we miss this in the virtual connections. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, you can say it's more cognitive. And also it's not it's there is this lack of emotional attunement. And there is no there are so many studies, you know, about how the gaze of a mother, you know, with her eyes is kind of affecting the development in the baby's brain and so on. So all these things are really, really important for a healthy development, like a lot.

Abdullah Boulad  00:13:29  Do you think that using technology now more and more and that we connect with each other through technology, that this is, speeding up the process of getting disconnected from what is going on in our body and feel the body because we are so in our minds purely.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:13:49  definitely. I think, yes, it disconnects us from our body. It disconnects us from ourselves, you know, not just the body, but everything that the body tells us, our we feel through our body, we send through our body. Without our body, we cannot, you know, connect. We need the body. And, but we we we, switch more and more to the cognitive processing of information when we use technology, which is nothing bad, but just if it's if it's just, you know, it's a little bit one sided. We need this other, you know, this other, other, this, stimulation of the emotional side as well.

Abdullah Boulad  00:14:31  Yeah. I think we lack a lot if we can not include our body and our conversations and and our perception of of the world or conversations with, with, with each other. I, I also recently read about some statistics and numbers, which are out there and they say like about 80 to 90% feeling emotion comes from the body to the mind.

Abdullah Boulad  00:14:59  Now, if we are only purely active on a digital level, we only use a partial of what would be our our real capacity.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:15:10  Right? So we kind of unlearn to read our emotions and to use them because they are telling us something. Emotions are telling us something about our needs, you know, or even if we have unpleasant emotions, they are so important. They have a function and people tend more and more to, kind of, you know, trying not to feel unpleasant emotions. Also, there is this, you know, I mean, of course, this is another topic. Media, social media and so on. You know, so, people learn more and more. I have to be good. I have to feel good. I have to be in a good state. There is less and less tolerance for unpleasant feelings, which means, like, we disconnect easily from unpleasant feelings. We try to do that, to distract ourselves. And it's so easy to be distracted. We consume, you know, we we just we watch a series or we play with the screen or, you know, we use drugs and all these kind of things that we are not really dealing with unpleasant things anymore.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:16:13  Yes, that's definitely another thing. And and also, you know, the, the, the performance oriented world we are living in. So, maybe, in earlier times it was so much more important also for people to not just to perform, but also to sit together, to chat together. But in this very fast, overstimulated world, there's actually no time for it or so much less time for it. So it's all about running around, being busy, consuming or making money in order to consume. And also, you know, technology is kind of also inviting us to do that.

Abdullah Boulad  00:16:52  And it's available all the time. All the time.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:16:55  Like at four seven. And yeah, the smartphone, you can always have it with you. So, you know, it's like a constant, you know, thing. And so the attention span gets more narrow and people don't focus anymore. And they, they don't have the nerves to sit down and really like or be in nature or all these things, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:17:15  So I think that contributes to this, increase of mental health problems and also, the problems that increase, for example, depression or anxiety or addictions, these are all things that are going inwards. You know, like, I like I feel this kind of. I don't know how to relate with myself. I feel empty inside. I don't know how to read my emotions. You know, these are the, the the mental problems that people suffer more and more.

Abdullah Boulad  00:17:47  Yes. according to the W.H.O., there are about 31% of of, people would suffer from anxiety, some sometime in their, in their life and about 20 to 25% with depression. And, these are quite, quite big numbers. So it's affecting a lot of people, not just, the those who seek help. this is something we, we see. Do you do you believe this is also due to technology or. also, if I look at the type of clients we, we regret the lack very often in and the capability of emotional regulation.

Abdullah Boulad  00:18:34  How much does it come back to technology and emotion regulation? And is really technology the only the only thing to blame here?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:18:46  No, certainly not so. But again, it's a it's a big factor because it's everywhere. Technology. Yeah. And and as we said technology tends to disconnect us from us. It connects us with, you know, virtually with others. And it's helping us in the practical life, but it's always disconnecting us from ourselves. You know, and even if we use an app like a meditation app, it's again, like we don't meditate ourselves. We we let others make us meditate. You know, it's a difference, right? I hear so many people. Yeah, yeah, I meditate, I have this app. You know what? Why do you need that app? Just. You don't need anything to meditate. Just, just just be with yourself, right. So we we kind of we depend we start to depend on the technology more and more. So. But coming back to your question.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:19:34  So I think, yes, emotional regulation. I mean, we start to learn more to regulate ourselves emotionally the moment we are being born. You know, in the beginning we just cry, you know, we don't have a language. We don't we don't know how to express what we feel. But our care givers, our parents, our mother, mostly, expresses it for us. Oh, I know you're hungry. Come here. Oh, you're tired, you know. So this is how we learn.

Abdullah Boulad  00:20:05  Using their feelings in.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:20:07  The moment. Yeah. So this was what we call core regulation. So we learn emotional regulation through core regulation and this core regulation. you know, a parent is only able to do that when they are regulated themselves and when they are present with their children, and when they are kind of connected in a, in a very emotional, intuitive way. Right. But nowadays already, I mean, if you are using your phone all the time, you're getting distracted. It's even hard for you to, you know, be really connected and present and empathic with your baby.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:20:43  Right? So it's kind of these are vicious circles. So the children, you know, already lack this kind of attachment and attunement that they need in order to really develop, this, capability to regulate themselves. And it takes like, even in the best kind of under best conditions, it takes 25 years, more or less, you know, until this process is fully kind of, finished the process of the development of emotional self-regulation. Right. And we can only learn it through, attachment with, Others that are present with us, that are spending time with us, that are paying attention, that are that know how to focus, you know. And in this fast world, that is not so easy. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad  00:21:34  No certainly not. And you mentioned, yes, I'm, I'm a father. I'm a father of three. And in the early days, certainly I was present for my children to co regulate. Hopefully I did I did a good job. but later on, they challenge you. So you should regulate yourself.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:21:55  Absolutely. In the beginning we are more intuitive with these things and it's so easy. I know it hurts and so but if a, if a teenager gets really aggressive and angry, that's another story. Right.

Abdullah Boulad  00:22:07  Exactly. And and this is where I feel children are the most, learning school for emotional regulation. for parents.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:22:18  Oh, yes. I learned so much through my church, I really learned self-regulation on another level. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad  00:22:28  I'm catching up.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:22:30  No. It's good. So. Yeah. Because they remind us also sometimes we we. But this is also another thing we need to be present with ourselves. We need to be aware of what is going on inside of us. Otherwise we just act out, you know? So if a if your daughter tells you I hate you, you're the worst dad in the world, you know, because you don't let me go out or whatever, you know? then, something maybe gets activated in in you because it that hurts, right? Or it makes you so and then you would maybe act out.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:23:02  What? How can you do this? Punished. Go to your room. Yeah. But so you need to be aware. Okay. This, Something is getting moved inside of me. I can regulate it, I can breathe, and I can, you know, see, my daughter is really angry at the moment, and I can contain that and calm her down, you know. So it takes a presence, it takes awareness to do these things. And again, normally we do this in a very intuitive way, but it's so easy to say here, watch a movie, then you won't bother me. Or here you have your tablet or whatever, you know. Yes or yeah, whatever, I don't care. I look at my screen myself, these things. So it's nowadays so easy to get distracted and to not go through these processes with patience and, you know, like tolerance and all these kind of things.

Abdullah Boulad  00:23:56  In all this mental health crisis we are going through today. Therapy becomes more and more important.

Abdullah Boulad  00:24:03  What is therapy in your words? And, what can someone expect from it?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:24:11  Oh, that is a big question. What is therapy? Well, yeah, therapy is kind of treating and dealing with those mental health problems, you know, with when people kind of lose their stability, in whichever way, right, if and when they feel like they can't manage themselves anymore and there is no support and then, therapy, I mean, therapy. Okay. You can you can also differentiate between therapy counselling and all these kind of different approaches. But a therapy I think is, is a way to treat mental health issues. I, I kind of I'm always hesitant to call it disorders or diseases because it's pretty labeling. It doesn't have to be a disease or a disorder. It's also very kind of, it sounds negative. I think it's more like there are instabilities dysfunctions, but there are good reasons why people end up in those situations. And therapy treats those reasons as well. So first we look, to how to activate resources, how to bring people back in connection with themselves and their, you know, positive qualities and resources they have inside and also using external resources again in their life because sometimes, you know, they are in situations where they feel like they are like almost paralyzed.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:25:38  So we activate a little bit their self-help, resources and their abilities to manage themselves. But also we activate internal resources as an, you know, finding more confidence, with themselves in themselves and faith in life, actually, and then also sometimes for this, it's necessary to, you know, to build this real kind of this profound relationship, which is, the foundation for any kind of, you know, change of. Process of change. So it's the same thing that we mentioned earlier. Only when we feel connected and safe and in a safe, like kind of relationship. We can go through this process. So as therapists, we also provide this, you know, safe relationship and this secure attachment that makes sense.

Abdullah Boulad  00:26:35  Yeah. So I don't know. Absolutely. I feel there is still a lot of stigma around getting treatment or realizing recognizing I have a problem. what would you tell someone who maybe had thought about getting help but never took action because of, the the stigma? And when is the right time to seek, support?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:26:59  I mean, yeah, I think there is this stigma, as you call it, is maybe the idea or the belief I am weak or I'm, I, I'm kind of I'm failing.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:27:10  when, When I look for help, right? It's my fault. I should do better. I'm. I'm a weak person. Or I'm a loser or whatever. You know, these are the beliefs that people have sometimes, and it's just for people who are really crazy, you know, who go see a therapist. But of course, that's not the case, you know? So I actually respect people so much that do that, make that step and, and go and look for support proactively because it means like they are willing to work on themselves and they are willing to kind of, get their reins back in their hands. Yeah. So, yeah, but there are, there are these beliefs and they're still there. And in some cultures more than in others, you know, but, you know, so in the Western world, people, it's now that's pretty, you know, accepted socially, that you go to therapy but still don't we also see it, with our clients that they feel very embarrassed, and they don't want anybody to know that they have problems.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:28:14  So we live in this world where we all, you know, should function well, and we are not supposed to have problems or to struggle.

Abdullah Boulad  00:28:25  Yeah. No, I, I can see this also often with clients, they need the privacy. They need the privacy to, to open up and, and feel feel safe and in their environment they cannot do that, especially with, as you mentioned, the type of clients we work with. if it's a CEO, if it's an entrepreneur or a public figure and or in their countries, at least a known person, or within their family, there is shame. around around.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:28:55  there is a lot of shame. But this shame has to do with, some kind of, strange values, you know? So I always encourage my clients to, you know, to talk about that process and to be a positive role model with it and to and also as a manager or CEO, like, you know, like, hey, I'm doing the work and, you know, so I think people can be really proud of themselves and they can really thank themselves for doing this kind of work.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:29:27  Yeah, it's a good thing. It's not a weak thing to do it. because it's, it's so normal that we sometimes struggle. and I always say like a child in order to learn to walk. they fall maybe 3000 times, and they learn when they fall. Not when they work. They learn by falling to walk in with stability. So we all need to fall in, in the course of our life in order to make the next step of development and growth. And, and we cannot always help ourselves. You know, we need others. We are social beings and sometimes we need professionals. Also, we can learn from all the professionals and experts, you know. So for example, medicine, like the traditional medicine, of course, it's all science based, but it's not, holistic. It's not integrative. It's not like they don't. Most medical doctors, for example, they don't know much about psychology and attachment theories and what we say and or sociology and all these, you know, you know, systemic effects.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:30:32  So just they just treat a symptom. That's not what we do. That's not what that is. I always wanted to do more than just treating a symptom, you know, and some people also. So some people think like, I can go to the jungle and then I'm being healed and others think like I go to see the doctor, they give me some pills and then I'm being healed. But that is not what healing or like, getting stable or going through a process, you know, of growth. That's not what, what it is. I think, you know.

Abdullah Boulad  00:31:02  Yeah. There is a broad range of weather, I believe. the doctor gives me a pill, and. And this pill will heal me. Yeah, like one size fits all or. I don't believe in everything. And I only want, like, in something which is mystic. Yeah, but the truth is somewhere in the middle, I believe.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:31:21  And, Yes. And not just in the middle, but using all these, as you say, the ancient wisdoms.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:31:28  And, there is so much, knowledge out there that we don't even know, you know, that we don't have access to. I've always been interested in it. And this is why I believe in this integrative approach. So. But it's not the only reason. It's not about we integrate methods. We also see our clients or the individuals as whole people, and not just a body or a machine or and not just a, a mystical or spiritual being. It's all together. We have a body, we have a mind, we have a spirit. And this needs to be kind of, you know, integrated in, in, in an approach. And I really think more and more it's that it is is really important, you know, because we learn with the help of our body. But we also we, we develop symptoms through the body. So we can also develop solutions and healing through the body. But without the the emotional side, you know, it will it will just be to one side.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:32:27  And and what we know nowadays about consciousness and the self and the sense of self, you know, we need this. We need this, sense. There is we are more than our body and what we feel we are much more. Don't you have this sense yourself? I mean, don't you feel like there is an energy around you? There is? Yes. I mean, the you, the one who can love your daughter is more than your body and more than your experiences and your biography and. Right.

Abdullah Boulad  00:32:56  Absolutely. I believe in that. And, I, I would describe this like if I if I would cut my finger, it's still me. If I would cut my hand. It's still me. If I would cut my both arms in my both legs, it's still me. So what is it that is me in this? In this case?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:33:18  It's such a it's such an interesting question. Who who am I? What is this? Me. And you know so. And I've always I mean, I'm reading so many books.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:33:29  It's, it's it's so interesting the philosophical, side of it to see what is the self, what is the me and, and what is consciousness and all, all these things, you know, I don't think we can get into this now, but it would be a great other, podcast. I think.

Abdullah Boulad  00:33:46  We'll.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:33:46  Know that. yeah, but but exactly. So when you said this, when I cut my finger, it's still me. When I cut my hand with me, I thought, and when your daughter cuts her finger, it's all. It feels like it's also you, write because you're so connected and and you so these things you know, we have there's this isn't that fascinating. You know that that that we can connect on a very energetic level, let's say. And of course it's also neuronal. We have these mirror neurons and so on and so on. But like two one sided approaches don't don't take all these things into account. You know, how energetic we also are as beings.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:34:27  And this is why we can use we can use, these things, in treatment. And I think it's really, it's really important.

Abdullah Boulad  00:34:37  We are talking now about the term psychotherapy, but psychotherapy can include a range of different micro types of treatment approaches. And, and I, I get approached by, by by people and they ask do you do CBT, do you do systemic therapy. Do you do Gestalt therapy? Do you do a psychodynamic therapy? What is your belief today? what worked with your clients and and your favorite approach to to be used? And is it just one thing or or, more like a toolbox of different elements you bring in whenever you need them?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:35:22  Yeah. So, those schools in psychotherapy, you know, are not just toolboxes, different toolboxes. They're also different, you know, kind of approaches as in, you know, what is, my belief about what mental health, or mental disorders even are. You know, and so there's a whole big of theory and philosophy behind most of these schools, not just about the methods or the toolboxes.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:35:52  I started with, I was I got trained in psychodynamic therapy and and psychoanalysis because I found it fascinating and you know and and yeah, but but I and it is still fascinating for me. But I soon realized it's very cognitive. It's not trying to be cognitive, but it is in the end because it's all through. It doesn't really imply the body, for example. It doesn't really work with the body, and it's all trying to understand and where everything comes from. And I noticed myself with my own experience of understanding is fine. And it kind of yes, it gives me a lot of insight, but in the long term it doesn't really make the change. You know, I need other things to make changes. And so I started to look around to other schools, and then I noticed every school has to say something interesting, you know, and why is there even these different schools? Why don't they all work together? You know, because all the knowledge and all the approaches Apologies make sense somehow, but we should combine them.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:36:57  So I learned a few things, of course, about behavioral approaches like and CBT systemic. Then I got trained in systemic theory where they think like it's not just the individual and their problems, it's the whole context, a social context, but there's also an inner context, an inner system, a biological system, a system of experiences and memories, you know. So and and I really got fascinated, fascinated by the systemic approach. And what I also liked is how they see, individuals, they don't, talk so much in diagnosis and disorders and so on. They see people as, like they always everybody always just tries to, cope with problems. But sometimes we develop Dysfunctional coping mechanisms. And that is what we call symptoms. Right. Or problems. But it's never like, oh, there is a disorder and we have to fix it. It's more like it's a dysfunctional solution for a problem that people are looking, for example, addiction. You know, people consume drugs in order to self-medicate in order to calm themselves down, in order to regulate themselves.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:38:19  So it's in the first place, like the intention is to solve something to to make something better. Right? And this is like the systemic therapy sees this more in in people. And there is so much respect to what the people. And it's kind of, you know, like I'm the expert and you are ill. And I tell you how what you have to do in order to get better. It's so much more a kind of a cooperation based, you know, like working together thing that I really liked. You know, when you look at these old traditional psychoanalytic settings where there's one doctor, he never says anything, you know? So I found that a little bit like kind of. Yeah, old fashioned and not really, you know, a direct good interaction. Then I did a hypnotherapy and then I did all so many other things. You know like because there are so many approaches that are like the hypnotherapy also is trying to see what's behind our thoughts and beliefs and what.

Abdullah Boulad  00:39:23  Is subconscious.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:39:24  Subconsciously what is going on there because many of the problems are happening unwillingly, let's say, like people don't decide willingly to have a problem. Yeah. So if you if you understand everything and then I say, yeah, why don't you do it differently? why can't you, you know. So. So. Yeah. So what I'm trying to say is, it was it was never enough for me just to be part of one school or follow one direction. I wanted to know about everything. And I came to this integrative approach because I can use everybody's toolbox. Why not? Why wouldn't I, you know, and and I integrate. But of course, it has to make sense. And I developed a kind of, I can say a certain mindset also about a certain idea about what mental health is and what it means and what what what a human being actually is. You know, it took me a long time, and maybe I still haven't learned enough, but, you know, so.

Abdullah Boulad  00:40:29  But certainly you made now your own own view of therapy, and with the experience of.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:40:36  It has to feel authentic for me as a therapist. You know what I do? Because if it's just something that I learned somewhere and someone told me, you can do this, then it's not real anymore.

Abdullah Boulad  00:40:47  So with all the different treatment methods and what's going on, do you see a common factor as an underlying cause for people to get like, symptoms, conditions they cannot get out by, by themselves?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:41:09  one underlying cause is there.

Abdullah Boulad  00:41:12  Is there anything or what? What is like the, like, root causes you usually come across?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:41:17  Yeah. I mean, okay, there's not one, cause, you know, and and also this, you know, that's the thing. Every, story of a human being, of an individual, every biography is so kind of, special and and also full of different layers and levels and so on. You know, this is also another reason why we need this integrative approach. I think because also people are not one sided and one dimensional. And so I wouldn't say there is one cause.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:41:46  But of course there are things that are that that have a, I don't know, like a, a core kind of, you know, effect on how we develop. And one thing we already mentioned that is attachment. You know, attachment is is really important. But there are also other factors. In my personal case, I wouldn't say I had I grew up with secure attachments, you know, but still I feel like I'm a very resilient person. Of course, I went through my crisis through my ups and downs, but I never really, you know, I never really lost balance completely. And so it's difficult to say, like, yes, if you have this course, then 100% or this will be the outcome. You know, it's so complex, so many factors play a role.

Abdullah Boulad  00:42:40  Are we born with different levels of resilience already or. Is this, Is this, like, learned throughout our life?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:42:49  That is still, you know what? What people discuss. And there is this idea that, it's also there is a genetic part and there's a predisposition and, you know, so some people are more have more resources, as in, you know, intelligence or social intelligence or whatever.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:43:08  I'm not sure if I believe that because, you know, I know that resilience is also something that can be built up and that can grow and that can develop. And also nowadays we know that there is this neuroplasticity. Our brain learns. So and this epigenetics, you know, so yes, we have a certain gene pool and there is this information in our gene pool. But what are we doing with this gene pool with this information. And how will it be expressed. That depends on billions of factors. And when we once we change those factors, you know also something in us will change. So there's this constant interaction between our inner system and the outer system.

Abdullah Boulad  00:43:51  That's the traditional conversation. Nature versus nurture certainly. So what is the trauma exactly. And post-traumatic stress disorders.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:44:02  Yeah. Trauma. Trauma is is an incident that has a strong massive impact on a person's, life or, you know, like on a person's, being. So. But trauma is not the event, the incident itself, but how we, how we can process, this event.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:44:24  So if we are really feeling helplessly exposed to something and it's, you know, and, we feel like, our space is being invaded, for example, or there's something, you know, something is happening to us and we are in a complete panic mode, but we don't know what to do. This is like the experience of a helpless nurse and like being kind of, you know, powerless, exposed to something. And our brain cannot process in a, in the feeling of, in this in a situation of threat. You know, so people who are either experience something that is so threatening and so impactful, that they cannot process it, then they get stuck there sometimes, or they experience things, over a longer period of time that are impactful and then they maybe never get out of this emergency state. So we kind of detach from those experience. We try to forget. And another reason why it can't be processed. Right. But then it comes back. It's like we, lock, something away to the basement and it starts to knock on the door subconsciously.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:45:38  Or you can say subconsciously, but also we can say like it's it's kind of stored in regions of the brain where then we kind of disconnect from. It's like we lock something away into the basement and it starts knocking at the door, and it just wants to come out, it wants to be processed. And it's like, you know, it's like a wound. You just put a Band-Aid on underneath the Band-Aid. It will still be a wound, you know, and it will still hurt and it will still do something to you. And that's a little bit the same with these experiences.

Abdullah Boulad  00:46:10  Particularly if some additional life events happen and add up on on this.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:46:14  Yeah. I mean, when we are disconnected from parts of ourselves, we can only function half ways, you know, like so it takes a lot of energy and it also takes a lot of energy to, you know, disconnect from these things. So that is already something that kind of makes people like that, like being a little bit more unstable, you know? And then these are vicious circles, actually.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:46:38  And and chain reactions. Yeah. So, treating trauma means, like, first we need to do everything so that this person can kind of calm down and the nervous system can calm down and go back to a relaxed state where the brain can process and where the person feels safe.

Abdullah Boulad  00:47:00  So we we talk about faces in this case or face one, would be more destabilization being in an environment where they feel safe and then become ready to to process.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:47:18  Right? So reconnect with themselves in this safe environment, people can calm down, learn how to be mindful with themselves, how to, you know, many like part of this PTSD. The symptomatology is like shaped by restlessness, you know, or maybe being being anxious all the time. Being in this defense or being in a hyper vigilant mode, being hyperactive from the nervous system or very hypo, very kind of detached from everything, very like not responsive. Yeah. But either way, what we try is through a safe environment, and, and through kind of, activating the healthy parts and the, the, the resources.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:48:03  As I said in the beginning, the internal personal resources, you know, we, we help people to reconnect with themselves to, to sense themselves again, you know, depending on what kind of trauma happened to people. if it's an early attachment trauma, you know, people like those people cannot it's impossible to to kind of develop the self-regulation, a good sense of self. So there is this disintegration? Yeah. So by reconnecting, the client to themselves and, you know, like, through the body, mainly, actually. And through sensors. Yeah. they also gain access to their resources, and they feel more. So it's a it's a positive chain reaction. Then it's a positive cycle, Okay. That is the stabilization. Then they become. Then the nervous system stops producing stress hormones and adrenaline and all these kind of things. Yeah. And everything kind of relaxes in the system, and then the processing can start.

Abdullah Boulad  00:49:12  Well, wouldn't also the environment play a big role here? Let's say if I would go to completely strange environment, I may be able to calm down.

Abdullah Boulad  00:49:23  but if I'm, if I'm at home and I'm, I'm constantly with the triggers which caused the trauma or remind me about it, or I return back to it. That that's a more difficult state to to do, to deal with.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:49:39  That's not safe, right? If I'm exposed, still exposed to threat, I it's impossible to feel safe. And it is not safe. Yeah, but the thing is, with trauma, even if I'm not directly exposed to the threat, it feels like the threat was still there. Because. Because it's still happening in the brain. Because it's not processed. That's trauma. But of course, it's even worse when someone is still in, for example, in contact with a perpetrator or something, you know, with or someone with the offender also, then it's almost impossible to do trauma therapy. So people need to sometimes to be in a space where they don't have to function, where they don't have tasks where they are, not where they don't have to be busy.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:50:27  It takes time. It takes a lot of it's a deep work.

Abdullah Boulad  00:50:32  To remove the triggers, certainly as a base for a long term sustainable. Yeah. Stability. Yeah. We understand part of trauma could be based on attachment. You mentioned which is possibly already happening in childhood. can you explain to me what is the attachment theory and, the when does it happen?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:50:56  Yeah. So I think I mentioned it earlier already, that attachment. So the bonding that we have right to parents, or other caregivers, is what we need in order to develop a secure attachment, a secure the presence of someone. But this is not just enough. The present also what we call attunement, like being emotionally responsive, being like pacing with each other, like being in the same field kind of thing. You know that. What? usually, mothers do very intuitively with their newborn babies in the beginning. And also fathers have this intuition and develop them. But, you know, we need to spend time together and there has to be the space for it.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:51:44  Right? But in ideal circumstances, this is coming naturally. You don't have to go to school to learn this, you know? But, circumstances can also kind of disrupt those, intuitive, natural processes. Right. and, so the attachment that there is a something that we call attachment trauma that means like an attachment is so disorganized or so insecure, so not reliable, also kind of confusing then, you know, the self and the sense of self and the integration of, you know, different layers of a personality cannot happen.

Abdullah Boulad  00:52:29  Yes. So attachments in young age they may affect us. in adulthood, when we are in a relationship, when we are in a, in a family, situation. not specifically my question now. Maybe it is related to attachment. Maybe not. But what? What type of relationship? problems or family dynamics do you experience? Because I know you're also family therapist. And you, you guide couples and and families through through, difficult moments in their life. what type of issues or, problems they have to deal with? And how do you, guide them through this process?

Gita Chaudhuri 00:53:23  Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:53:24  yeah. You're right. I mean attachment also the, the, our experiences in the early attachments shape a little bit how we, you know, how we kind of, how we respond in relation to how we design our relationships in later, later in life, and we develop certain protection strategies also defense strategies, you know, in order to prevent ourselves from being hurt and so on, you know, so we can be either very avoidant or very clingy, very dependent and so on, you know? So, what we try and, couples therapy, for example, is like, again, the same thing, like finding a way that, the, the partners, connect with themselves so that they can connect with each other, staying regulated in order to, you know, be empathic with the other side because instead of acting out and being in the defense mode, that is basically what we learn, what we work on, because many conflicts are happening and and people get so stuck in their conflictive kind of patterns and dynamics because they are trying to defend themselves and they and then it's a kind of a power game, you know, and I want to win.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:54:45  But my experience is people don't want to, fight this power fight. You know, they want to relate with each other and they want to connect. And this is what we do. We help them by working on communication, working on awareness of what's going on inside. Once I have this awareness of what's going on inside of me, it's so much easier for me to also see the other side, what's going on there, and then of course, helping to communicate these things, finding a language for emotions, finding, finding a language for my needs. instead of accusing or complaining or threatening and all these things, you know. So, is that answering your question a little bit? I'm not.

Abdullah Boulad  00:55:29  Sure. Yeah. It's on the on the couple relationship level. So communication is key, I understand. also within the family communication is my understanding is also that everyone should work on themselves before relating in a proper way to each other.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:55:47  Well, not not necessarily before, you know, it can also happen at the same time that you work on yourself and all, but but it's like what we said earlier.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:55:55  So you you have to be regulated yourself in order to, you know, be in a nonviolent. Yes. So also in families, it's the same thing. What we said earlier, parents who are stressed or maybe traumatized or like what I mentioned about my parents, stressed, tensed in fear and worry, you know, because there's a war going on or whatever. They cannot co regulate their children. a parent whose child is drug addicted maybe feels like very worried, overwhelmed. At the same time angry helpless. So many other like many emotions are being activated and they kind of flood the system maybe when they don't know how to regulate it themselves. So how can they then, you know, be there for their son or their daughter? You know, so.

Abdullah Boulad  00:56:49  And in this case, if I'm regulated, let's say I'm calm. I want to have a healthy relationship or a healthy conversation about topic oriented, how to deal with a narcissistic partner or a family member. In this case, because this happens, especially in certain, levels.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:57:10  Yeah. Well, narcissistic. That is interesting that you use that word. It's kind of a label as well, and we should be careful about what we call a narcissist. You know, and it's actually what it means. Like, these are not bad people also. But, you know, they have very strong self-protection skills, you know, and strategies that they developed. And they they need to feel like I'm in, I'm safe, I'm in power. And they use many like kind of dysfunctional ways also to to stay there in this place where they feel that power actually because they're inside, they're very fragmented and very hurt and very kind of disintegrated again, you know, so it's a it's a state of self-protection, of a massive self-protection, if that makes any sense. So, of course, when we deal with narcissistic, so-called narcissistic clients, I'm always careful with the labels and etiquettes, you know, or if we if we work with clients who have narcissistic partners, we try to point that out.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:58:14  You know, it's very challenging, actually, for therapists to work with nurses. And it takes a lot of sensitivity and knowledge and empathy and intuition in order to, you know, like, not lose this client because they are very vulnerable inside, but they never want to seem invulnerable, you know, mostly. So I have to be careful. And I've always had to find the right balance of, you know, like, kind of, you know, validating how they're feeling at the same time, also bringing in some new, ideas of how to relate with others and how to open up and how to relax inside. and, sometimes it helps also clients whose partners, have these patterns, you know, these narcissistic patterns in their relationship, maybe they're very dominant or very vulnerable, very jealous of or, you know, or very demanding. You know, then, what we try is first, like, finding a little bit, like, trying to change the dynamic, more in a direction where both can be a little bit more independent from each other.

Gita Chaudhuri 00:59:28  Like we work a little bit from a on a separation, because if it's too intertwined and too entangled, it's just almost impossible, you know, to find a healthy, like, functional way to interact.

Abdullah Boulad  00:59:42  To define the roles more properly. So let me just, Am I understanding this correct that you what you're saying is, being dominant sometimes is mixed up with being narcissistic also or perceived by by a partner, potentially.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:00:03  Sure. I mean, yeah, and I don't want to say like every dominant person is a narcissist, but, you know, why is someone being dominant, very dominant. Mostly because they protect something else, you know, control someone who is, yes, someone who is very much in peace with themselves and very kind of, you know, chill and relaxed and safe. Don't doesn't have to be dominant, right?

Abdullah Boulad  01:00:29  They don't fear they lose something or they lose some ego, or.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:00:33  It's coming from a place of fear. You you you you're right. It's coming from a place of fear.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:00:40  A fear mostly of being hurt. Yeah. So if I control you, and if I'm the dominant one. If I'm in power, you cannot hurt me. I hurt you rather than you are hurting me. I, I need the self-empowerment in order to feel safe. That is a little bit the dynamic.

Abdullah Boulad  01:01:01  Is this not also some sort of trauma? of of a narcissist. Let's label it now as a narcissistic Statistics. Personality?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:01:10  Do you mean.

Abdullah Boulad  01:01:11  They.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:01:11  Have in the background? Mostly. Yeah. Or. Or they have narcissistic parents themselves. You know, where the you know, sometimes we talk about, projective identification and so on. So, you know, a narcissist mother, for example, would also be maybe very controlling or very demanding or with high expectations, but not doing this very intuitive, natural, healthy kind of relationship. Yeah. Attachment and style. Right. So yeah, narcissists create narcissists. We could say.

Abdullah Boulad  01:01:46  The reason why I mentioned narcissism is because we get a lot of inquiries from women, sometimes men as well, telling us that, they, they struggle with narcissistic abuse and, this, they use this type of term like we experience.

Abdullah Boulad  01:02:05  Also people talk very quickly about, labeling things online. they use clinical terms for something they cannot understand. Like someone is bipolar or some someone has a depression, or this is this, and, and this is also an, a new phenomenon happening around the world with, labeling something. How how do you see that?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:02:31  Yeah, I agree, I think it's happening a lot. And people, have access to all kinds of information now. And in the social media, you find everything about being people who are being bipolar and, you know, narcissists and so on, I think, yes. But they're still they still don't really know very often what they are talking about because the information is sometimes very one sided or very superficial. And I try to avoid those clinical terms actually in the conversations with, people, because it just, you know, it would kind of underline these labels and putting people into boxes. But I would be always curious, very curious and interested in what they are really having difficulties with, you know.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:03:16  And what is it? And of course, there are certain dynamics in relationships that like that become can become very toxic, as in there is no, you know, there is no healthy balanced interaction and one is maybe dominated by another 1 or 1 partner feels really trapped and so on. And even there is research and so many studies about how our society also becomes more and more narcissistic. And maybe that has to do a little bit also with the things that we mentioned in the beginning, you know, like increasing individualization, but also like, this, this, kind of, belief, everything has to be perfect and we all have to be. We have to perform and we have to. So there's a lot of pressure also on, on on people, you know, to be good, to be good in everything, to have success, to accomplish everything. They want to be great, you know. so, maybe that we live in the world of more and more so-called narcissist narcissists, as in people who are not really empathic anymore for others and who, who, but who are at the same time in a constant self defense mode, actually, you know, you know, and, and some people tend to, protect themselves by diminishing and belittling others.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:04:46  And I think if people, you know, ask and seek out for help who are living with someone, they are being diminished by or so, then we should take that seriously, that we don't have to label it, but we can be really curious about what is going on and how. Why do you feel and what makes it hard for you to do? And it's really a complex dynamic and can be really difficult to to get out of these patterns, you know, in these dynamics.

Abdullah Boulad  01:05:14  Like there there might be also codependency. It's not easy just to to withdraw from the situation.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:05:22  yeah. It's not easy. for emotional reasons, but sometimes also for financial reasons or economical reasons, you know. Because, if someone is really in power and dominant, they will try everything that so that you are not in power and that you cannot just walk away. Yeah. And so yeah. So this is something that we, actually work on. And I see it, in many, therapies and in many processes that this is a topic.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:05:50  Yes. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad  01:05:51  So pressure can be from the outside, certainly from a parent or family member from any type of stress around us. or the need to perform to be seen and so on. But there is also our internal process, like the overthinking, obsessive thoughts and sometimes self-sabotaging elements. How or what would you suggest someone to how to deal with their obsessive thinking?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:06:22  Yeah, first of all, I would kind of again reframe it as, as something that is, as opposed to, you know, that people develop in order to stay healthy. Let's say, you know, it's not just how to deal with your symptom. It's more like, what is this symptom for? Why did you even develop it? You know, so obsessive overthinking, for example. Yeah, people develop it. No one is born with on an obsessive overthinking. They people develop it in certain contexts, maybe when there is Was very little emotional kind of interaction. Maybe. When when, you know, when overthinking is also coming from a place of fear, overthinking, means like the mind wants to control everything.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:07:13  Yeah. There is no uncertainty. Everything has to be known. And the mind always tries to be in control. Yeah. And. And so it's another self-protection strategy, right? It's coming from a place of fear. But it's. Yeah, it can become very dysfunctional, especially if it's overly, obsessively done. Yeah. Then it's it's it narrows the mind. It narrows narrows the focus. And it's impossible to look left and right.

Abdullah Boulad  01:07:45  Yeah. So it certainly may also have effect on the nervous system, the anxiety, totally panic.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:07:49  Attacks.

Abdullah Boulad  01:07:50  And all these, possible, side effects or physical symptoms.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:07:56  Absolutely again. You know, this whole kind of chain reaction thing and the circles, the vicious circles. So, I say, just stop thinking, you know, I'm talking. Of course not. Because of that would be so easy, right? But that is what people ask. How can I stop thinking? It's impossible to stop thinking. Actually it is. And even if I try, the harder I try, the more I'm doing it, actually, and the more it ends up.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:08:23  So we address it by again, calming the nervous system bar down, going more into the body, doing physical things, haptic things, you know, listening to music, using the senses, talking, walking, all these kind of things. Mindfulness, you know, everything that eases the mind, you know, and with all kind of activities that we do with our body and with our senses, we don't think so much. We still think, but we are not noticing. We're not paying too much attention. So that is how we work on this. And then of course, we need to understand what kind of fears are, you know, are trying to be controlled with these, of overthinking, Tendencies. And then we work on these fields.

Abdullah Boulad  01:09:16  So don't think about a pink elephant. Yeah. So that's.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:09:21  Exactly.

Abdullah Boulad  01:09:21  That's a little difficult to do or.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:09:23  Not, it is impossible. So and I always use this example. For example, imagine you are in a packed restaurant. You know, and there are so many.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:09:31  There's this soundtrack, you know, people talking and kind of plates clapping or whatever. You know, a music playing like a it's really noisy and loud. but you are able to talk and listen to just one person, right? And you kind of filter the rest out. But if I told you, don't listen to all the sound around you, it's immediately there because this will kind of activate your attention to the outside. No, but if I say just just listen to your own breath, you can even, you know, you kind of fade all the rest out. Yeah. This is how we work. It's, our focus of attention, actually, shapes our the way how we experience things.

Abdullah Boulad  01:10:18  So any type basically of mindfulness activities and, meditation and and, walking. do something creative. All this may, may be helpful to reduce overthinking.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:10:36  to be more present. Because when we are thinking we're not present. The mind is kind of carrying us away from the present moment, right? Either to the future or to the past and coming back to the here and now.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:10:49  Actually, yeah, more or less.

Abdullah Boulad  01:10:51  We're overthinking also takes effect and potentially trauma on personality situation is. There is also the effect of disordered eating and or eating disorders, which is also fueled potentially by by technology and social media and body image topics, especially with young women. how how do you see this development happening? And and, what what is the origin purely to be seen in, in, in the social media effect or.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:11:25  Or where the social media and all the but, you know, certainly contributes to this, increasing perfectionism that people have with their bodies, not just girls. Also, more and more boys know, but also other things like social expectations or whatever, you know, and it's not exactly new, you know, that, people can be very critical with their body and especially also teenagers. When the body really changes and goes through creepy processes, you know, it is a it's a very fragile phase. And at the same time, like, the teenage years is, is also a phase of, you know, increasing separation from the family and from the parents.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:12:13  So it's, it's it's really a very special, phase. And this is, you know, people are very vulnerable, like teenagers in this phase and also the whole families, you know, because things are changing so much. Suddenly the peers become more important than the family members. And then, you know, there's this, innate insecurity because everything changes so fast in the body, the hormones, everything, and in the outer world. And there's school and there's pressure, and there are the expectations of the peers, and there's this strong need to belong to, you know, certain groups and communities and to be accepted. And teenagers can be very judgmental like, but in a very emotional, not rational base, you know, so it's kind of a little bit like having to survive in a very threatening jungle, you know, and so when the pressure of having to be perfect on a in the appearance, you know, and the look is increasing, then of course the focus goes more on this, but also, eating disorder happen in the context of this separation process.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:13:25  Yeah. So and for many, eating is the only way to control the own life. Their own life. Right? I restrict and control my eating. That is something that nobody can take away from me. And and like this, I, I feel some power because I feel like I can do it and I can have a perfect skinny body and I can starve. And I'm powerful and nobody can take that away from me. That is, you know, some of the dynamic, but also it is it. We can also always bring it back again to the attachment, you know, because not everybody in this teenage phase develops an eating disorder, and not everybody who's exposed to the social media and the social expectations is, you know, so overly critical with the body that they start to restrict or to starve. so that there are also other factors that play a role. For example, again, what we said in the beginning, attachment, a disintegrated self, you know, so sometimes, for young people, it's, it's not possible to have a real good connection with the body.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:14:38  And again, you know, with the emotional world. So they are trying to, you know, find something that that gives them this kind of, you know, as a, as a security. And also there's this they're not just eating disorders that are about as restriction and control. There's also more the kind of excessive behaviors, impulsivity like bulimia, you know, or binge eating and so on. So that is also about like actually represents, the, a lack of, you know, capability to, to regulate, emotions, you know, so there's something that we call emotional hunger, you know, so, like, really filling an emptiness or trying to, get rid of tensions because eating can be something very calming. And during eating, we, produce certain hormones. That gives us this, a good feeling. And also the industry, you know, the food industry is made, you know, under the, you know, like sugar and and, you know, like potato chips also are kind of, produced so that you always want to eat more.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:15:51  There are whole labs that, like, kind of try to find out the proportions of fats and carbs and sugar or whatever so that, you know, it's getting addictive, you know? So these are all things that contribute, you know. And then on the other side, you have to eat healthily. So there's a lot about eating that is not natural anymore. I want to say in our Western society, our relationship to food is has become a strange right. We have to either to eat very healthy or we just don't care anymore what we eat. so this is also a factor, but the most important thing actually is, the topic around the separation process. together with the earlier attachment styles and the family dynamics. And this is why it's so crucial that, in, the treatment of eating disorder, that we include families not just because, mostly the the clients are teenagers and, under 18, but also because the family is the the whole family is kind of in this, in this situation, you know, and in a difficult situation.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:17:04  And it has to be seen as a system that kind of belongs together. It's not an individual problem.

Abdullah Boulad  01:17:11  What can someone do to help to help a family member? through through an eating disorder? we know we understand there are different types of of such, but how should, like, a parent, behave. What? What are the do's and don'ts here?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:17:33  this is difficult to say. It depends. But, you know, like, in general, I would say, again, giving more space for autonomy, which sounds really sometimes counterintuitive because, you know, once, your child develops an eating disorder and let's say doesn't eat any more and, like, really loses a lot of weight and so on, parents get very worried and, and then, you know, they try to protect more, they monitor their children more and so on, which is actually counterproductive because the more you control and monitor, the more the urge for self-control and autonomy will rise, you know? So it kind of, deepens, the, the impaired patterns and dynamics.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:18:21  So what we try is to, create space, you know, and we always we also want, of course, we try to, support parents in their parenting, as in, you know, finding that balance of, setting boundaries. encouraging. to get better, but also giving that space and finding trust. and that that sounds very easy, but it's not. And also it's about, you know, attachment. Again, if my the way I connect with you is just through worries or just to I want you to do what I say, that it's very one sided again. So we also support parents in this attachment attunement parenting, which also also relaxes a lot the dynamics. And and once the dynamics are more, less tense and more relaxed, you know, the, the clients with the eating disorders can, can find new ways to feel empowered and to feel their autonomy and to gain their self-confidence. So we also have to really work again on the sense of self. And we have to work on the on the nervous system.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:19:38  On the connection with the body again. So it's complex. It's very complex actually. most studies show that like 90% or 99, maybe percent of all cases of eating disorders, are trauma related also.

Abdullah Boulad  01:19:58  Would you would you suggest that parents seek help themselves, like, professional guidance before they take any actions? or as early as possible or.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:20:12  I think parents need support. like, it's it's so difficult and so challenging and, and I understand the parents that are over worried and that they just want to do everything to protect their children and then overdo it. Maybe they really need support. They need help. It's it's something that you can't deal alone with. And, and, you know, and it's also, And I think that is my experience actually, that it also helps the child when they know that the parents do something for themselves. It kind of it is like a relief, you know. it's a complex dynamic and you know, I could write a whole book about it. So it's difficult to, to you know, kind of reduce it to, to a few informations here.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:21:00  Yes. Yeah. But so I don't know.

Abdullah Boulad  01:21:03  We'll do a separate podcast about that. So now wrapping up a little bit our whole conversation. I mean what we all want to achieve in life is to live a happy life, right? to live a happy life to, to to be fulfilled in what we do. how can we achieve that?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:21:29  You haven't achieved that yet, did you?

Abdullah Boulad  01:21:32  It's, It's an up and down.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:21:33  Maybe you can. You can ask yourself, when do you feel happy? Is that when you accomplish something? Or is this or what is this?

Abdullah Boulad  01:21:42  What makes my happiness possibly comes from a source of being calm? Whenever I feel calm, not stressed, and I have control over what I want to do and, And I have my own rhythm, there is the moment where I feel happy.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:22:03  Then you feel content, maybe. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, Yes, I think that's important. What you're saying. You want to feel calm and connected with yourself and kind of in charge and control, not remote controlled, let's say.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:22:17  Yeah. And that is something that contributes to this feeling of, yeah, being contempt, happiness is actually something. And of course, again, so many philosophers and psychologists and, and you name it, have, you know, written books about what is happiness and so on. But I think the common ground here is like happiness is something that we can only feel in the moment, in the here and now, and only if we are really connected with the moment, if we notice what makes us happy, if we are aware of what is, and then actually from that, we're pretty easy to feel happy because you can be happy with eating a banana, or drinking a coffee or sitting in a warm place or so. Yeah, you can get happy about anything. Actually, if you pay enough attention, you can be just already. Little things can make you happy.

Abdullah Boulad  01:23:14  By being grateful just for little things.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:23:16  As well. Exactly. By paying attention. By noticing it? Yes. Attitude of gratitude.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:23:21  These are all things that contribute to this feeling of I'm content. I'm happy as, It's all good. It's all right. Yeah. I don't need much more now. But also what you mentioned, like, having this, this sense of being in control. So that is something that we call self-efficacy. We, we we don't want to feel helpless. We it's very difficult to be happy or content when we feel there's nothing we can do. So we need this, the sense of self-efficacy and being able to, you know, have some reins and like, yeah, having this rain and, and and being able to navigate through situations, manage situations independently from others. You know, many factors from a psychological perspective contribute to feeling happy or not happy. But I'd like to point out this common ground of you have to also pay attention to what makes you happy. Otherwise you can never be. So people tend to see once I have like a X amount of money on my account. Or once I bought this car or when I found the right partner, then I will be happy.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:24:34  So people relate happiness to spectacular events or something, you know? But the experience shows like it's never enough. You know, when you accomplish that, then you you want the next thing. So happiness is not happening in the future. It's now.

Abdullah Boulad  01:24:53  Is happiness always connected with fulfillment? Because we always hear often like, is a fulfilling life and a happy life, but fulfillment is it on the individual level or also within a family dynamic? What's your understanding of philosophy? Yes, but I think.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:25:15  I think, you know, it's nice, I like that. No, I think the happiness and fulfillment are actually two different things, aren't they? So fulfillment is maybe more, a Estate actually, whereas happiness is more a feeling. Right? So and if I'm in a state of fulfillment, it's not really a feeling. It's a state. And I'm fulfilled because. What would you say. What makes you feel fulfilled.

Abdullah Boulad  01:25:42  Yes I'm useful I, I in my current life I can help others. I, I, I'm perceived as someone, someone who, who can provide something useful helpful.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:25:58  Yeah. I think that's actually, very important. I think, fulfillment is something that we have when things we that when we find things meaningful, also things that we do are being meaningful and that they make sense for other others and that we can contribute to something bigger. Maybe the meaning, like the meaning of life. We can discuss about it endlessly, but I actually think it's a very subjective, feeling, you know, to to have meaning or not.

Abdullah Boulad  01:26:32  I am asking this question because I think a lot about these things and and certainly I'm a bit philosophical about about it. I always compare it with with like a monk. If you are a monk and sitting all day and meditating, you are in a happy, fulfilled state. Maybe, but wouldn't be miss out life in one way. Or what happens? Or is life meant to be just for everyone sitting? Imagine everyone would be just sitting and meditating all day.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:27:08  you see, but what about all the things you're saying are actually underlining what I'm saying? What I said, I think it's a very subjective thing, you know, so a monk can be happy and live a meaningful life by just meditating or working on one piece of wood every day.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:27:23  Because he's fully dedicated to what he's doing, fully dedicated, and that gives him meaning. Whereas others want to build big businesses or others want to create art. It's all subjective, right? But we have to be connected with what we're doing. We have to feel fully dedicated to it. And I think that gives us a fulfillment.

Abdullah Boulad  01:27:45  Sometimes I see many of our clients, they have everything. They have status. They have the money, certainly. And they still don't seem to be happy or fulfilled. And they ask, also, how can I how can I live a fulfilled life? and and even though they have everything, they seem to have everything. What's the effect? money cannot buy everything.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:28:15  No, it's like they have it, but they're not living it. But. But maybe the monk, you know, in his, monastery. Just, meditating and eating a little bit once a day. he lives what he wants, and it gives him a deep inner meaning. You know, so it's not about achieving things and all the success and the money and everything.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:28:37  Exactly. I was going to to say this. We have so many clients who feel this big emptiness inside. Even if they have everything and they can afford everything, but what they can never buy is happiness. They can buy maybe the things they think that make them happy. But again, you need to be present. You need to be dedicated. You need in order to be dedicated, you need to have some connection with the things you're doing. And I always tell these clients, you can be happy if you have a shower or when you wash your dishes, because you you do it with a lot of dedication and gratitude. And, it is wonderful to see, actually to bring those people who have everything but don't feel anything inside. To bring those people into those states where they really start to connect and start to be happy with the small things. It's really great to see.

Abdullah Boulad  01:29:34  You're a therapist. You deal daily with, with, many, clients with their struggles, their problems, they go through what what do you do to stay in balance and how do you keep boundary? and and, without it being affecting your, your life?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:29:58  Yeah.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:29:58  So that is and that has always been easy for me, like maintaining my boundaries just by being very present when I work with the clients and I'm very focused and I'm very much with them and, and I'm very kind of, you know, interested and curious about themselves. But when I go and see the next client, I'm very present with the next client. And when I go home, I'm present by being in my home or being with my kids or whatever. Also, what helps me is like, it's it's not just I hear the stories and I deal with the things. I deal with the things in a positive way. So actually, I focus more on the on the achievements and on the positive factors. And also I'm very grateful every time, clients open up to me and give me so much trust, you know, and, and work with me, I feel very grateful. So it also fulfills me a lot. It gives me a lot. I do a lot of, yoga and physical stuff.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:30:57  I love to. I used to dance when I was younger, and I really, I need that. I loved horseback riding and being in nature and, you know, like, I really, kind of, charge my energy levels with being outside and having, You know, having some sun and, and, feel like. Yeah, breathing fresh air and so on. So, yeah, it's always important to find the good balance, and I'm working on it.

Abdullah Boulad  01:31:27  Still no. Thank you for sharing that. I think, a lot of therapists would feel the same way around the world and, and, and, and showing that also a therapist is a human being and, and may also struggle in implementing this in daily life, or at least we need to remind ourselves and each other about, about the healthy routines and the activities and the social environment we we need to implement. So, a therapist is not a robot. It's not ChatGPT 24 seven available. But, definitely, we work on ourself.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:32:09  Yes. And we need a good routine. We need a good structure in order to maintain this kind of high level of, you know, like, work that we do because it's really, in a way demanding even if I like it. And it's not like, exhausting in, in the sense of, oh, I don't want it anymore. But by the end of the day, I really feel like I gave a lot and I was so focused all the time. I just want to, you know, just relax and rest.

Abdullah Boulad  01:32:37  And obviously it's rewarding and fulfilling to you. Otherwise you wouldn't do it.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:32:41  It is. It is so, so rewarding. Actually it is, but it's but yeah, but you know, I don't do it for the rewards sake. I mean, it's just like, it gives me meaning. Meaning? Yeah, it fulfills me.

Abdullah Boulad  01:32:55  It, And it helps, not just you to find meaning. It helps a lot of clients to to find meaning.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:33:03  That's why it gives me so much meaning.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:33:05  Yeah.

Abdullah Boulad  01:33:05  So it's both. It goes both ways.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:33:07  Totally.

Abdullah Boulad  01:33:08  I have one last question to you. If you now could reach everyone in the world and give them one recommendation, or one wisdom you would like them to know or to do in their life, what would that be?

Gita Chaudhuri 01:33:28  You have it all inside. It's all there. Just find it. You know? Focus. Pay attention. That is something I would say.

Abdullah Boulad  01:33:37  Beautiful. So we are all seekers to find ourselves great. It was a pleasure having you today. It was an exciting conversation. I know we can talk for hours and we will talk for hours in the future hopefully. Go deeper. Thank you very much for being so open and sharing all the information and wisdom today.

Gita Chaudhuri 01:34:00  My pleasure. Thank you for having me. And thank you for being here. I feel flattered that you asked me all those. So lots of good questions also.

Abdullah Boulad  01:34:09  Thank you.

Speaker 3 01:34:09  Thank you.